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Permalink Reply by Matthew Vogt on February 22, 2011 at 9:43am

i see a few departments around us have the new 2" line how does that work for you and is there a moderate diference with gpm compared to a 1 3/4"

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Permalink Reply by Matthew Vogt on February 22, 2011 at 9:49am

you actually answred what i was looking for if you can get the same flow with the 2" and only need 2 guys to move it it seems like a no brainer to swap out all 2 1/2" for 2"

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Permalink Reply by Matthew Vogt on February 22, 2011 at 9:55am

we had a fire in a 4 story res. over commercial on sat 2-19-11 the fire was in the storefront (division 1) there was a heavy volume of fire in that store that was being renovated so there was a heavy fuel load my engine first due because we were rite around the corner did our size up and pulled the 2 1 /2" crosslay we had the fire knocked down in less than 10 min with rapid overhaul the fire was out within 30 min of the first alrm i think had a 1 3/4" line been pulled on this fire we wouldve been in deep shit all because the volume of fire in that brick 4 story 1890 built building

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Permalink Reply by Jack/dt on February 22, 2011 at 9:57am

I'm guessing that the reason we have a 2.5 x 300ft is so that we can pump the same gpm with same nozzle tip psi as the 2" but at greater distances since there would be less friction loss in the 2.5

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Permalink Reply by capcityff on February 22, 2011 at 10:00am

Sometimes people answer these questions thinking they're the only department in this country. You have to remember that other fire departments are completely different in staffing, tactics, and buildings.

We have 1 1/2" lines, not 1 3/4". It's VERY rare that we pull a 2 1/2". This is because 1 1/2" is much better for US most of the time. We have very good staffing and fire houses in some areas are only a few blocks apart. This allows us to be a much more aggressive fire department than others. We are trained to always be very quick and agressive and usually have no problem operating our 1 1/2" line alone. With our staffing and quick response times though, it's rare we even get large fires.

A 2 1/2" line is sometimes needed, but its very rare to use for an interior attack here. It just wouldn't make sense since the 1 1/2" is deployed much faster and can be used for a quicker knockdown.

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Permalink Reply by Jack/dt on February 22, 2011 at 10:27am

Come on capcityff, you guys are so whack, donning gear while en route, no seat belts, 1.5" lines, and for what, you maybe personally see only 2 or 3 hundred fires a year? Who's going to have more big fire experience? You, or the guy who sits on a 2.5 twice a year wetting down the foundation?

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Permalink Reply by Captain William Frazer on February 22, 2011 at 8:45pm

Funny you ask this question. We just discussed this with our Chief last night. I was in shock a few days ago while in route to a confirmed basement fire when one young guy who is a structural FF asked me in the truck "do you want us to scott up?". I turned around as said "really?" lol.

I dont know whats up, but I know how I am going to change it. Lately I see these youger generations coming off the truck, no tools, no imager, no lights, no radio, and in some cases fumbling around with packs etc. It all comes down to training. The local academy has these guys going through training buildings, putting on scotts in a class room, and doesnt even teach them to tie a hydrant. The hose lines are already laid out for them, charged, rescue tools in a rack outside the building etc etc. They dont get the hands on training of how to dismount a truck or engine ready to do battle. I am in the middle of revamping our training so that at every drill they will come off the truck with appropriately in gear, scott, tools and radio, even if its a rope drill lol. They will take off the equipment before drill begins, but I want them to do this automatic. Easier to lay the equipment down then to have to run back and get it cause you forgot it.
As far as hose, yes we have had this issue from time to time but not often, and again its all down to training. The guys laughed at me one time when I pulled a booster line out for some mop up work and asked why we were not using a 1 3/4 , they had to know that during the overhaul, we were still in the investigative stage and didnt want to mess up any evidence. It was over kill for the operation at hand. Again, i think its all in the training and the officer or senior guy leading the dismount and attack. Taking the time to reassure that big fire is big water, etc, but sometimes the wet stuff on the red stuff could create a problem also. They learned that at a truck fire not to long ago when the magnesium went off on them from the engine heads, it blew up on them but they had full PPE on and it was a non issue.

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Permalink Reply by richard sees on February 22, 2011 at 9:04pm

Ah excuse me! Is there a problem dressing out while responding? Where I'm a vollie we better be out the door in 30 seconds, no less then 45. We don't have time to put gear on before we ride. Anyway speaking of big water when I was at Station 14 when we had a car fire the chief had us use the gun. After the fire was out and things cooled down then we used the booster and mopped up. I tried to do that at Bragg too and I used foam much to the chief's distress. He raced me to car fires so he could stop me from using foam and the gun. It didn't matter how I fought the car fire, gun or hose, my drivers knew we were using foam. Used the gun on dumpster fires too. If the lid was open and or one of the doors was open one of the guys used a hook and closed the lid and door and we set up so we were not directly in line with the door and used the gun and filled the dumpster up. I used foam too if I had to. Same if I was at an airfield. I used the turret on the crash truck and foam if I had to. Too damn much in cars and dumpsters that will get you hurt to use a hand line if you can avoid it.

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Permalink Reply by Jeff Cole on February 23, 2011 at 12:03pm

As the Brother said, each department operates in some way differently than the other. The deciding factor in equipment choice and use is staffing. Building construction and response time are the other primary factors. Yet fire control and extinguishment with regards to damage control and a quick knock-down depends on the crew being abale to attack the fire from the best possible vantage point, support-work (ventilation) performed in conjunction with fire attack and line advancement and GPM.

Regardless of how well you perfrom the flow has to be capable of fire containment, control, and extinguishment. That directly affects firefighter safety as well. That's not to say that knock-down isn't possible or the use of smaller handlines makes any particular department "wrong" in what they are doing; aggressive firefighters WILL get a knock down if it's at all possible with a smaller line, BUT it may be quicker, with less fire spread and a greater margin of safety with a larger flow.

The information provided on the 1.75", 2" and 2.5" hose-line shows that there is an alternative for those of us who don't have the desired response of four on each engine and four or five on a truck, and a response of four or five and two on an initial or 'box" alarm. Adapting to less than desirable staffing could be a challenge to those who have always worked with well-staffed response.

Getting back to the thread's beginning, "wasting time" putting a 2.5" in service is a poor excuse. The real waste of time is pulling a line that is not capable of slowing the fire down quickly. There should be little difference in time stretching either sized line. It's the advancement that CAN cause problems if there is a lack of training, and consistant drilling, and failure to provide policy, and failure of Officers to follow and reinforce that policy.

WHY pull an 1.5" or 1.75" line on a heavily involved structure? Regardless of how aggressive you may be, if the fire eats up the water faster than it can cool and slow the fire down...what's the point?

This isn't something recently discovered. It's tried and true long-standing basic principles.

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Permalink Reply by Moose on February 25, 2011 at 2:58pm

Its not the size of the hose, its the way you use it!!! Wait...are we still talking about fire hose??? LOL

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Permalink Reply by capcityff on February 25, 2011 at 3:52pm

That PGFD video is what I was looking for. If you actually know what you are doing, 1 1/2" can do a lot.

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Permalink Reply by FETC on February 25, 2011 at 4:24pm

Richard, Elkhart Brass makes a "Chief's" Nozzle for 1.75" attack line that uses 75 psi at the tip and flows 200 gpm with very low NF.

It can be done with 200 or 300' stretches.

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