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Ten Minutes in the Street: Read "through" the Smoke
You’re the designated Safety Officer at the scene of a working fire involving a moderate sized, single story commercial building. Companies have been working for about ten minutes into the operations. You’re starting to complete a 360 of the building, which has full access. You come across the task operations depicted in the photo. You observe a three person crew operating a hand line. (Two firefighters and a Company Officer). A Battalion Chief is observed coming across the location also.
As the Safety Officer, what do your observations tell you? What are you’re immediate actions and follow-up actions (if any) and why? There’s some dynamics present here that say a lot, IF you know what to look for, what is obvious and what is very subtle.
A typical fire, typical conventional fire suppression operations being undertaken, typical tactics…..Read through the smoke and take a minute to see things that we sometimes fail or neglect to see, remember, we may be only ten minutes in the street, but it’s what happens in the eleventh and twelfth minutes that changes everything……
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Ben Waller on
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I couldn't tell if it was a track or just some metal stock fallen to the floor.
If I can't tell, I'm going to assume the overhead door, because that's the higher risk.
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Permalink Reply by Christopher J. Naum, SFPE on
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The issue is certainly that a "door and frame" are presumed to be present "somewhere" in the opening, thus begging the question, "what's the worst that can happen?" if its an overhead door, we need to be concerned about it failing and, A) hitting the crew, B) Trapping the crew... If its a slider, what about a counter weight for the door? Is it a sliding fire door or large mass door...There are plenty of issues...and opportunties for more observations and comments... (BTW Ben..thanks as always..)
Also..think about the door head lintel ( lateral support above the upper door frame opening.. how is it affectd by the heat impingment and the load its transfering across the door opening?
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Permalink Reply by Jeff Cole on
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As already stated, that hoseline isn't doing ANYTHING. It amazes me how much some departments have gotten away from using the 2.5" line...ESPECIALLY for a commercial occupancy!!! The conditions presented indicate NO ENTRY as there is NOTHING to gain, and EVERYTHING to lose, meaning our firefighters. Yes, this IS a perfect place for a monitor, placed away from the loading dock, and not staffed. And not a "personal" monitor, but rather one with two intake lines, for higher flow.
The smoke has been "read" by previous posts.
As for the SCBA waist straps...I have no problem bending, moving, or whatever with the waist straps tight as designed. It certainly does take the strain off the shoulders, but let's not forget that the waist straps facilitate the removal of a downed fire fighter, and this is easier done when the straps are in place. But I think this is a lost cause. It's obvious that some firefighters have other ideas in mind, and surely they are aware of things we must not be. Good for them. Maybe it save a miliionth of a second, I dunno.
I know of two firefighters from upstate NY that were in a similar situation during the 90's, and were almost killed by an exploding propane cylinder from a forklift inside. Risk vs. gain. Risk vs. gain. I'll say it again, what is the gain here, and what are the risks?
BUT...again, a picture is but one small moment in time that does not tell anywhere's near the whole story.
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Permalink Reply by Oldman on
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"roof trusses (most likely light-weight steel truss roof), which may be just about ready to come down".
You are correct, and it did. - Attachments:
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Permalink Reply by Cory on
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2 ½ till the ground monitor is set up and is ready, and why not still run the 2 ½ as long as you are out of the collapse zone and possible explosion zone if it decides to ignite the smoke or something decides to go fly like a rocket ship. It is hard to tell how big the building itself is, not knowing if it is joined to other business or not, if not how about a trench cut? If the fire is in one area of the building! Aerials, I see the picture OldMan posted and I was wondering why nothing was up in the air? I wasn't there so I don't know. Waist straps, of course, and 1 ¾ ???? Like I just said before I wasn't there so I don't know why that was pulled. Sliding door good note on that with the track! No reason to be inside with that smoke, this is a business and normally business have stuff that go boom or like to fly or fall, nothing good can come out of that, just like someone stated earlier, smoke explosion etc, the structure itself, how old is the building? Is smoke coming out of the mortar? How long has this fire been cooking the ingredients inside? Ok now that I look at the other picture no trench cut is needed, because it looks like there is heavy black smoke in more than one place. So aerials, ground monitors, and 2 ½’s call the city water works to turn up the pump pressure for the water lines and of course hot dogs on a stick, pig in a blanket? Whatever you prefer, you are going to be there for a while!!!!
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Well, I tried with the "Amityville" comment. :-)
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WIth a one-story building, there's not really any reason to use an aerial, especially immediately after the roof autovents.
"Roofs are stupid, they shed ladder pipe water as if it were rain."
Al Brunacini, 1985
An option that is sometimes better than a trench cut is to use three or four piercing nozzles (1.5 or 1.75-inch hose) and just pound them into the roof, charge them, and then operate them unmanned. It's kind of like installing a high-flow sprinkler system in the beam/truss void. They don't vent the roof, but they cut off the lateral fire spread.
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With the addition of the spoiler "fire thru the roof" image, don't get hung up on what you think the overall incident issues are or could be-the focus on this exercise was to explore and dialog safety issues that are presented to us in the course of our operations and observations for a snapshot image that captures one element of an overall incident, that's meant to be generic. We were starting a good dialog on observations, safety issues and thought provoking operational points that many of you were bringing out. The types of things that come from experience, and the kind of things we want our less experienced personnel to begin to see, based upon what we dialog, point out and share. Let's see if we can still bring out some additional operational and safety points that will contribute towards some skill development and insights.
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True, but with it starting to vent threw the roof, I would have to imagine more of the roof is coming down soon, I could be wrong, but I really like the piercing nozzle idea somebody was using there brain thats for sure!!! And I disagree with the simple fact of when it does collapse more and more, its going to be easier to get water farther into the building and you can see where it is going without having to send manpower in. Rather than just using ground devices lobbing water and not knowing for sure where it is going, but you are still going to run into the problem of the roof deflecting the water and you won't be able to get everything out but atleast you are getting water into the building, as long as you are not just throwing it on the roof that isn't collapsed to add weight to it, heck maybe it stays together and doesn't collapse I could be wrong????
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I don't know if anything was said about the white helmet walking around pretty darn close to that building, no scba on even if he isn't on air, and no gloves. It probably is their practice to not have an SCBA on which is how they operate but atleast get back from the building a little bit. I can't quite tell what the officer is doing but what about a thermal imager that should be able to give you atleast a little insight on where the fire is.
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Permalink Reply by Dennis Brown on
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Well to small of a line for the looks of the smoke flash going to happen soon the bricks are looking bad from the heat or just old dont know whats burning in there BC has no scba on dont see back up crew unless they are out of site on this pic
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Permalink Reply by Jared Lelaidier on
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looks like a garage of some kind lots of greasy buckets in there many possible explosive type of items could be present, very heavy looking smoke(oil). Bat chief should not be there without full ppe he has a radio in his hand and he should use it and be observing the fire from a distance to watch for signs of colapse and other duties. Two of the firefighters do not have their SCBAs fully buckled...hope that regulator clip doesnt get caught when SHTF. There are sheets of steel/wood/whatever stacked in a way they could easily slide toward the fireman on the inside. The turn out gear is probably going to be wasted too.
My immediate thoughts are get your gear on properly a dead fireman is useless. Move back this is not a building worth risking a section of hose for unless its attached to a larger structure or ocupied, but either way move back use a ladder truck to have FF's open u the roof probably a tar roof and its been getting hot for atleast ten minutes. Larger dia. hose maybe set up a couple of master streams, call for haz mat to cover drains from all the run off and help with anyother problems.
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