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Ten Minutes in the Street: "I Hear Ya Knockin', But Nobody's Home"
Ten Minutes in the Street
A Buildingsonfire.com Series
Interactive Scenarios, Where YOU Make the Call
After a slight hiatus, Ten Minutes in the Street is back, beginning its Summer Tour bringing you insightful and provoking street scenarios for the discriminating and perspective firefighter, where you make the call. You don’t have to have any special rank to participate in this interactive forum, just the desire to learn and expand you knowledge, skills and abilities in order to better yourself, create new insights, while sharing your experience and perspectives to help you and others in the street in making the right call; so everyone has the opportunity of going home.
Ten Minutes in the Street: “I Hear Ya Knockin’; But Nobody’s Home”
Volume 10, Number 7
The bells and tones hit, the radio crackles with the alert of a report of a fire near a building- its 02:45 hours on a warm summer morning. The Communications Dispatcher recites the address a second time when you realize it’s near an address you had a run to right after dinner, earlier in the evening. Your company had a small trash fire outside a vacant building near that address in your second-due area. Nothing big, but your company was in and out of there in a short period of time.
You’re the company officer riding on the ladder truck this morning. As the driver pulls up on street side, you can see the glow of a developing fire from the rear of the structure on the Charlie side. The structure is a two story, brick and joist (Type III) building. The occupancy is unoccupied and the second floor apartments appear vacant. The building is located at the end occupancy in a row of five other party-wall connected buildings.
As you complete a quick 180 degree assessment on the D-C Side it’s obvious you have a rapidly developing fire that is communicating into the building on two floors. It’s more than a fire next to a “the” building. The engine company is a few minutes out and the chief is out a few more minutes than that. So you’re in the street, it’s 02:56 hours and it’s you, your company of three firefighters and your apparatus. Oh, did I mention two patrol cars just arrived?
· What’s the Risk Profile of the Building and the evolving incident?
· What inherent factors are present within buildings of Type III construction that all the operating companies need to be aware of?
· How do you address Vacant or Unoccupied Occupancies? Is there a difference? Do you have SOP/SOG’s that address this?
· Give us a quick overview of your pending actions; What’s your initial incident action plan (IAP)?
· What’s the primary tactical profile for this incident, how are you going to address assignments and tasks? What are they and why?
· What is the Ten Minute milestone; what do you expect to be doing or have happen after ten minutes have elapsed after your arrival?
· Safety Issues; what are they?
· Officer’s Choice: Tell us something that you think is mission critical for this incident.
- You can also find timely information and postings on TheCompanyOfficer.com and CommandSafety.com Follow Buildingsonfire on Facebook . We're also on Twitter
- Also check out the following two interactive groups on FFN; CommandSafety Group and Building Construction and Firefighter Safety Group
- Attachments:
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Vol10NO07.pdf, 264 KB
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Josh Bertram on
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Been a while since I've done these but here it goes....
Upon arrival, give my scene size up and call command. I would have my driver and back end guy make entry to the building next door to check for possible extention into it and get out as quickly as possible. As soon as the first engine arrived, they would grab a hydrant on the way in and stretch a 2 1/2 to the rear to wet down the fuel tank back there begin attack, at least to get it knocked down. 2nd engine would then go inside and finish the job in there. 3rd engine is RIT. Next truck will continue search of exposures for extention.
I would worry about collapse on the rear since there is so much involvement there. If we want to keep this from spreading, we're gonna have to work fast. We are also gonna have to do something about the fence along the side of the building. I'd say break out the K12 and cut a good sized hole around back to allow us access back there.
The cruisers could block off the road and I would have the utilities cut to this building ASAP since there is a line running around back.
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Permalink Reply by Just Plain Craig Moyer on
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EVen though the structure LOOKS vacant it could contain bums or even a homeless family.
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Permalink Reply by Chris on
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Not sure with it being night time, smoke in the area, and other conditions how we are ok with it "appearing" unoccupied or vacant. When did we start assuming in this business.
Inital ops, Size up report, estabilsh command, walk to rear to check, operator sets up truck and checks roof, myself and rider force entry and check conditions, if they warrant ( which they "appear" they might) start a search for occupants and FIRE extension. By this time Engine is nearing, should have an idea of interior extension, can advise engine of best course of action/placement with 1st line so we don't waste time and truck operator should be getting ready to open roof if needed (which probly will be).
I agree with engine/ladder on the "FFN" way, I am not sure if it's lack of expericence, common sense or a lack of wanting to be aggressive with out being dangerous goes on here, but it is something. There is no reason with what is presented here that a competent Ladder officer and rider, with tools and possibly tag line can't enter this building and get a better picture of whats going on, fire extension and a search done. Water IS on it's way.
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Permalink Reply by Rob on
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Chris, please don't establish command and then start doing operational tasks, especially interior ones. Command must not become operationally involved otherwise how can you maintain scene awareness and perform that function.
There are numerous case examples of where a distracted command has resulted in tragic consequences.
Just something to think about.
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Happen everyday in the real world, talked about in every text book and ICS book. We all don't have the luxury of good staffing.
So you mean to tell me if your on an engine your not going to help with the line, get things moving, help to what needs to be done to mitigate the hazard.
Doesn't make sense. There are case examples, read all the same niosh reports you do, and they all reference command, in everyone of them, but I cannot remember the last time ( and maybe I over looked it) that there was one from single engine or truck showing up, establishing command, and then some crazy happens. Thats not command, that bad situational awarness in the first place, bad decision making, bad size up. Command can be transfered in a number of different, acceptable ways, and transfering after starting operational task is one of them, to the next incoming officer. This happens in my City and my Vollie department all the time, the first due officer with establish command, size up, make a couple request/assignments and off he goes to mitigate the hazard instead of sitting there watching it get worse by the second. That officer need to do a good size up and have good situational awarness.
I would pose the question, and I would think a lot, how many people on here does there department run that way? Most departments 1st due officer off an appartatus doesn't stand around do nothing unless it is strictly defensive, and even then, I hope they are helping stretch lines.
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I know exactly where you're coming from Chris, and I do understand how manpower issues can make your sense of priorities seem different. This topic can be very situationally different too.
Unless there is an immediate life or death situation to deal with, then no, the officer establishing command does exactly that, takes command. I'm not sure what your command officers do but 'stand around doing nothing' is certainly not what goes on in my department. Officers need to start gathering information, and lots of it. They have critical decissions to make that are equally important as streching a line or doing a search.
360° recon if possible
Rescues?
Exposures?
Whats the fire doing?
Type of building and contents?
Occupancy?
Fire location?
Fire size?
Are 1st alarm resources adequate and are they coming?
Apparatus placement for incoming units?
Instructions for incoming crews?
Water supply if you're on an engine?
Just to name a few...
If you can do all this, monitor the radio, issue instructions to arriving apparatus and stretch lines, throw ladders and search in heeavy smoke then you're superman dude. No one can do that and perform the tasks properly. There's no way you can perform command duties and do an interior search at the same time. It's one or the other.
Transfering command is totally different. In your response to this thread you did not transfer command. In fact, you addressed virtually none of the issues/questions presented in the senario. These are issues and questions that need answers, or you as the OIC are setting the stage for bad shit to happen.
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Rob,
We obviously have a difference of opinion, which is good, thats what makes the world go round. I went back to check the list of things asked for, and I think I hit most of them. In my opinion, a lot of the list you mentioned I did, or you don't want me to do. 360 did that, rescue ( you said don't worry) exposures (obvious), whats the fire doing/contents/fire location/fire size all stuff you can't do from standing around out side, 1st alarm resources is going to be a decision in your head you can make based on "your" response in your real life district/city, apparatus placement (all other pieces have officers, don't need to micro manage unless there is something glaring, and theres not), water supply (not on an engine, thats there job and there officers job), and sure you can give initial 2 or 3 units instructions over the radio which you would do weather standing in the street or before you enter the building. Command then gets transfered to the next officer who arrives.
It's simple, you have to remember, after doing a walk around, size up and your rider is forcing entry and your making sure your operator is good, that's the 3 minutes it;s gonna take for that company to arrive the with what was side above a "few" minutes. Remember, theres some stuff that I said needed to be done before entry, we are not talking stepping out of the truck and kazam, I am inside the building.
The odds are with this being primarily an outside fire, the interior recon is gonna be quick, I am not talking about setting up a camp in there and spending a while, but you gotta get in a to a quick recon of what interior conditions are, if anything. It's called truck work!! Out in front of the hose line doing recon.
This happens all over the country just like this, maybe not where you are from, but it happens. Let me ask you this, If I did all the things above, but didn't say I was taking command, you would be ok with it!? If I say it or not, companies are still gonna be looking for me for the FIRST INITIAL needs if I establish command or not, and I can give them and announce at the same time, Engine X will have command upon arrival, we be entering the building, once I have done all my outside size up.
By looking at this building, If you have them like this in your district, this is not the first show in one of these.
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Permalink Reply by NOVAFireman on
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1. What’s the Risk Profile of the Building and the evolving incident? It's an abandoned building, that very well could be occupied by Urban Pioneers. Being abandoned, it's hard to say what conditions are like inside, and how structurally sound it is.
2. What inherent factors are present within buildings of Type III construction that all the operating companies need to be aware of? The building has a former commercial occupancy on the 1 st floor, and residence on the 2 nd floor. Generally, these buildings are converted from a single occupancy to multiple apartments. Floor plans will vary from building to building, even on the same block.
3. How do you address Vacant or Unoccupied Occupancies? Is there a difference? Do you have SOP/SOG’s that address this? Personally, I consider these situations as abandoned buildings, not unoccupied. That's just the way things go in my part of the world.
4. Give us a quick overview of your pending actions; What’s your initial incident action plan (IAP)? As a truckie, I will stick to truck work throughout this incident. Have the driver position the truck as usual on Side Alpha. Establish Command and give a size up. Split the crew in two. OIC and Barman does a 360. Outside team grabs ground ladders and gets to work throwing them to all available windows to get that out of the way. Provide Communications with a report from the the 360.
After doing a 360, begin forcing doors on Side A and have that cleared for the engine companies. The outside team could take out some windows and do some quick VES operations checking for Urban Pioneers.
Pass command to the next arriving Engine, or Chief.
5. What’s the primary tactical profile for this incident, how are you going to address assignments and tasks? What are they and why? Deviate a little from our SOP, and have the 1st due Engine pull their 3" Blitz-Fire line to Side Charlie, along with their high-rise pack, which contains 100' of 1 3/4" on a gated wye.
Once the engine hits it with the Blitz-Fire, have them break off the nozzle, connect the wye and place their handline in service.
The 2nd due engine would take their line to Side Alpha, make entry and check for extention with you and your firefighter.
3rd due engine would pull a line to the Bravo 2 exposure and check for fire and persons trapped, then work toward the fire building if #2 was all clear.
4th due engine will take RIT.
2nd due truck would split it's crew, throw more ladders, and prepare for vertical ventilation if needed. Inside team would go with the 3rd due engine to search and check exposures.
6. What is the Ten Minute milestone; what do you expect to be doing or have happen after ten minutes have elapsed after your arrival? Within 10 minutes, an engine would be on scene and commit to side Charlie and get a knock on the fire. Ladders would have been thrown to Side Delta, and Alpha. VES in progress.
7. Safety Issues; what are they? Abandoned building with poor conditions inside. May very well not be structurally sound. Make shift barriers erected to keep others, and police out. With these buildings, you never know what may inside. Cooking meth. Old needles laying around, etc.
8. Officer’s Choice: Tell us something that you think is mission critical for this incident. Getting the 1st due engine's line to side Charlie and getting a knock on the fire, and checking for Urban Pioneers.
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Permalink Reply by Andrew Salinger on
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Ok ill take a shot at it, iv never worked with a ladder truck or a truck that doesnt carry any water ecxept for MVA rescue and no fires bigger than a house fire or wildland fires.
Call for 3 more engines, have a FF look for nearest hydrant, other 2 FF work on access to fire through the side fences and doors/windows for when engine arrives and check for fire extension, other FF grab highrise pack and if hydrant close enough start protecting exposures, I would do a 360 sizeup and quick external search, Driver start setting up ladder for when 1st engine arrives.
Patrol car officers evacuate immediate buildings under threat and get utilities disconnected
1st engine lines into ladder to start attack from above as my some of my FF's should be ready to operate ladder, 2nd engine 2 lines internal attack if possible or external attack through windows if possible, 3rd engine 2 lines external attack, 4th engine 2 lines internal/external attack
I think that ventalation at this stage will be counter productive as it will probably draw the fire through the building faster
10 minute mark expect to have ladder almost in operation utilities off and access into building, neighbouring buildings evacuated or mostly evacuated. Hopefully the cheif has arrived by this stage and can take command.
Safety issues would be structural collapse and electricity.
If the job is to much for me to command then i would hand over command to the Cheif when he arrives and brief him on my incident plan and assist where possible
i have no idea when it comes to hose sizes as we only use 38mm (1 1/2") and 64mm (2 1/5") over here.
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