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Should First or Second Engine Lay In?
I was recently on the phone with a friend from a neighboring fire department and we got on the subject of laying in at a structure fire. My department practices first in engine laying in his practices second in engine laying in. I am looking for feed back. I am thinking about reccomending to my department having the second in engine lay in. looking for good feedback.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Jeff Manning on
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sometimes yes, sometimes no. PPV can be used during fire attack, giving better visibility to the attack crew and supplying fresh air to possible trapped victims, IF, IF, IF it is used correctly, paying attention to all the possible problems, and to the influence of the PPV upon the fire itself. This is not an excuse to set the fan in the door and blow full-power on all examples, it is only one more tool in the toolbox. If it is set, NOT on and blowing, then it only takes the officer a second to pull and aim it in. If it's still on the truck, 2-4 minutes to usage. Time is fire growth.
It's better to have and not need, than need and not have.
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Permalink Reply by Mark Oomkes on
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In addition to what Jeff said, a couple things.
#1 We don't have many fires, and do even less vertical ventilation. To which I express my displeasure frequently, but I don't wear a white hat, so what's a guy to do?
#2 Being that the second engine or truck company is several minutes out, vertical ventilation isn't going to happen as rapidly as we would like, so we make (too much IMO) use out of PPV, because used correctly, it works fine. Except those certain situations.
Like I said, we don't drop it and fire it up immediately, but it is there if\when we need it. Whether that be fire attack or overhaul. We hope for the best and plan for the worst. Took us some time to decide on this and this is what we came up with. It works for us in our area and situation.
As an aside, I find it a touch strange that as a chief you think that PPV is to be used only for overhaul. You've only got a couple years' experience on me and I can remember going through FF1 and learning about PPV back then already. It may have only been for overhaul then (1989) but I know the idea of using it during\before fire attack have been around for at least 10 years.
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Now it's getting complicated.
Depends on where the outlet is. lol
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Permalink Reply by capcityff on
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Not always true. It takes us an extra 10 seconds to lay out. If riding layout I jump out, grab the hydrant valve connected to the 3" hose and the rope(tied to last 50 ft of hose so it can be pulled off quickly), drop it in the street, jump back on the tailboard and ride. It literally takes 10 seconds. 3rd due engine will usually complete the 1st dues water supply. We also have 5 engines on scene within a few minutes of each other though.
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5 engines, 2 trucks, 1 rescue squad, 2 battalion chiefs, 1 ambo on every box alarm. With the working fire dispatch we get another engine and truck, as well as other resources like the air unit, investigator, ems supervisor, deputy chief, etc. 2nd alarm brings 4 more engines and 2 more trucks.
Engines have 4 guys on each, trucks and rescue squads have 5 each.
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Permalink Reply by Vic Silverfish on
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save the basement!
I kid! I kid! If you are in a rural area and don't have backup right behind you, this makes good sense. We have a similar requirement here (2 in 2 out) but the 2 out can be en route to the incident. Once they come up on the radio, we can count them in our minimum staffing. Decent compromise between going it alone and waiting until it's way too late.
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Permalink Reply by Pararescue on
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Just throwing this out there... What if the 1st due engine lays in, gets water into the 5" and the engine breaks down or has mechanical problems and cant give water? Now the street is clogged by the charged 5". Just sayin.....
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This is a really great article. However, you need to choose what ideas and innovations you want to work with. Improvise, Adapt and Overcome
http://www.fireengineering.com/index/articles/display/342842/articl...
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Depending what hydrant connection you have another engine can get on the hydrant and pump thru the first engine.
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Permalink Reply by Robert Owens on
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exactly makes even more sense for the first due to lay out in my eyes. If they go up the street and break down will the second due even have room to lay to them? This way you can at least pump through them as they become a big manifold.
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Permalink Reply by Donald Morrow on
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In our department the fires due engine lays in and lets second due set up water supply! that way the LDH is ready to go...especially if it is back a long lane! Time saved as far as I'm concerned!
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