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Non Instructor teaching mandatory
Should a Non Instructor teach a state mandatory class to new firefighters?
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by KARL on
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I do not feel that a non instructor should teach a state mandatory class to new firefighters. As an Instructor the liability is what you have to look at. If you have an instructor teaching and does not teach to the NFPA standard then signs off on someone's skills that didn't do the skills according to the standard, it's going to come back on that instructor. I feel that they should either use a full time instructor or an associate instructor for that state.
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Permalink Reply by Oldman on
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What is an instructor?
Someone who knows the material, not only the book material, but is able to present the practical application in a way that students are able to understand and apply the knowledge and skill. Someone who has been practicing the subject in the real world, but doesn't have have a "piece of paper" with the word "Instructor".
Or is an instructor a person who took a Methods of Teaching course, has a piece of paper proclaiming him/her to be an instructor and reads what is in the book or power point, and can maybe do the basic practical material.
Do we disregard the input someone has just because they don't possess a certificate? There is a BIG difference between being an "Instructor", and being able to teach. If the class meets or exceeds the "State Mandates", the students learn from the class and is able to apply it correctly, then what has it hurt?
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Permalink Reply by FETC on
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Courtney, You state this is a state mandatory class... which should require a state certified instructor who is authorized by the state with teaching credentials on file, for that given subject matter.
I agree with OldMan that many seasoned, and experienced firefighters have a wealth of knowledge, they may even have the traits to pass along the information, which would be beneficial to other firefighters. But what they lack is the educational methodology coursework and the T-t-T program for that given subject matter required to deliver a state class or firefighter program in which is "so-called" certifed per a state academy or a national standard, NFA. But most importantly, they lack the credentials to reduce the department or state's liability. This is why you can't have Little Johnny run a live fire training evolution within an acquired structure just because he is seasoned, salty or "really" experienced. Lawyers love that crap.
If you go to a surgeon for a medical procedure, bet your damn ass he is going to be ceritifed or has credentials to back the coursework/practicals/clinical evaluations needed to operate in a professional environment, otherwise what you have is a guy who stayed in a Holiday Inn Express last night...
Why should the Fire Service be any different?
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Permalink Reply by Art "ChiefReason" Goodrich on
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"Mandatory" does not automatically qualify the subject matter or the instructor. NIMS is required. Who's our state certified NIMS guru? Answer; you or anyone else who may have the knowledge. You can go to FEMA's website and probably take it online.
If your people are enrolled in a state certified course, then a state certified instructor is required. If you are satisfying training requirements under your Dept. of Labor, then the person who is teaching, must be "competent". At our department, each month we have a different training topic and it is delivered by our firefighters. It gets them in front of the group, it starts to develop leadership skills and it keeps everyone involved.
People get too hung up on what's certified, required, advisable or useful for that matter. And I have met my share of "instructors".
With regards to liability; It will always fall to the department. A court would have to go a long ways to nail someone for not adequately providing proper training. Perhaps the information was good and the student had poor retention skills. Maybe he could sue his high school for not properly preparing him for Life.
I wouldn't lose any sleep over it.
Present the material; test for it. Discuss it. Move on.
TCSS.
Art
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Permalink Reply by Courtney Marx on
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Karl, Oldman, FETC, & Art "ChiefReason" Goodrich
Thank you for the insight on the issue. To clear up some information, this is a state required course being taught by a firefighter with less than 3 years of service and having the Chief of the department sign all of the paperwork required by state to certify fellow firefighters.
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I agree Art, the Chief owns whatever is being taught in his fire station or department. My basis was if the instructor was delivering a pro-board or accredited training program.
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Permalink Reply by Capt.Alex Arnold on
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Excellent, Chief. Well said.
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Permalink Reply by Jenny Holderby on
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In that case the responsibility is on your Chief since he is the one signing the paperwork. As far the state knows, the class was taught by the chief.
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Permalink Reply by Trainer on
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3 year veteran?? If this guy has the ability, maybe. I have had long time instructors teach very interesting subject matter and suck at it..BORNING. I have had new instructors teach very dry material and make it dam interesting, kept me awake. Then there are the instructors with squirt guns, these guys are sneaky. Point is anyone can instruct anything, if you want to learn, that’s a different story, even if it’s a certified course, you just need someone with the proper credentials to signoff. I guess what I’m trying to say is if he has the gift to gab, that’s BS for you city folk, class clown or is just plain comfortable in front of everyone, then let him go for it. The guy with a bunch of war stories does not always make the best ones.
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Permalink Reply by Chief 29 on
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First off it is obvious the Chief does not understand the legal ramifications involved with signing off on the required paperwork. By signing he is attesting to the fact that all students have been instructed and tested to the level indicated by the state whatever state it may be. If something negative happens to or because of anyone that he signed for especially through the material taught during the course, is he ready and willing to take the rap for it.
I don't always agree with the quote "certified instructor" term. Half the instructors out there have less experience then the students they are teaching but as long as they are able to teach the class and the majority of the class is able to use the knowledge gained on the street when called upon I would consider them a certified instructor.
Training in all aspects is great. Without training we would never progress. I provide certificates of training for in house drills and lectures for the firefighters personal files and by no means does that make them quote certified on the subject matter or even myself for that matter. All that certificate states is that the student was present and participated in the training. State Certification should only be given by someone who the state has qualified to do so as well as being held at a certified training facility.
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