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NFPA ? Are Officers required on structure fires
Yes I am needing help in locating NFPA code or requirements on officers being present at all structure fires. I know I have heard it before and insurance companies want this but I need to find it in writting. The issue I see is we are sending out fiefighter with less than 2 yrs exp. and we do not have a officer present on structure fires in many cases and promotions are not to be seen in the near future. Any help is appreciated.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by FETC on
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I am pretty sure you are not going to find what you are looking for. The NFPA is only a guideline and not a mandatory requirement, unless your community has adopted the NFPA in an ordinance.
Therefore it falls back on the AHJ - Authority Having Jurisdiction, that would be the town or city manager and the Fire Chief. In my state, there is not even a law requiring firefighters to be certified, therefore it falls back on the AHJ.
We do have an RSA (law) that states senior fire official shall be in charge, but the senior fire official on scene could be the 2 year firefighter if he or she has the most seniority.
I would suggest researching what the town or city's insurance carrier requires, as this is what the AHJ will be held to when something bad happens. Otherwise, it is time for the town, fire commission or board to consider the operational make up of the organization and make some changes.
Good luck
FETC
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Permalink Reply by John Crabbe on
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To add to FETC, the roles of officer should be filled on any scene, but it does not mean the person "must" be an officer. For instance the role of Incident Command is to be filled, but as mentioned, this could be a two year FF.
It is in the dept's best interest to have some form of structure in place in regards to SOGs. The roles should be filled, but if an officer is not available, the next person better be competant enough to fill the role.
In our case we will have officers arriving, but it is entirely possible that an ambulance with 2 firefighters could be first on scene of a structure fire. the role of command will still be established by even a newer firefighter.
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Permalink Reply by Ben Waller on
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What Bill and John said...
In addition, if you don't have an officer present, are you just going to let someone's home burn down?
Having a 2-year firefighter in charge is obviously not ideal, but if it's the best you can do, then the choice is the 2-year firefighter or nothing.
I doubt that either your community or your department would be willing to settle for "nothing".
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Permalink Reply by Fabulous Heather Days of Summer on
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Jason search this topic among the general FFN forum discussions - this topic has come up a few times before - and you may learn some from all of those comments.
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Permalink Reply by 55 TRUCK on
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The Indianapolis fire dept. does what is called a second officer class. This class is 16hrs long.
Does follow NFPA guidlines 1021& 1500. This class is offered to fireman with 2 +yrs. This
class allows them to ride the seat when the officer is gone.
You may want to try somthing along these lines.
Let me know if you'd like more info on it.
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Permalink Reply by Mike Schlags (Captain Busy) Retd on
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Thank you...
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Permalink Reply by Jack/dt on
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I think this is a legitimate issue and to say "...search this topic among the general FFN forum discussions - this topic has come up a few times before..." is little more than a dismissal if the links are not included. I don't remember any discussion of this nature. There may have been discussions on how qualified a person needs to be to become an officer but that's significantly different on whether or not NFPA Standards require an officer to be present.
I think the concern here is that inexperienced FF's are responding to serious events without adequate supervision, experience and training. This being the case the department may very well be liable should an injury or worse occur.
NFPA 1021 Standards for Fire Office Professional Qualifications are the minimum standards put forth by the NFPA which develops Industry Standards. See here for a good overview on why 1021 is important. You should check out this site, http://firelawblog.com/ as well for more information.
As some have pointed out, you work with what you have but if the best you have are FF's with two or less years experience running the incident and/or leading crews and making tactical decisions you are setting yourselves up for some potentially dangerous (and departmentally damaging) situations. Allowing inexperienced FF's free reign on the fireground is akin to allowing an 18 year old the right to drive your equipment based on two years of driving experience in a toyota corrola.
You might want to approach your command and "suggest" sending people to an officer training class. Failing that, as 55 truck pointed out maybe they can at least develop an abridged version, some training to be an officer is better than none at all. Besides NFPA 1021 and 1500, you should include NFPA 1521 Standard for Fire Department Safety Officer.
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Well this is actually a problem in many department's. There are early 20's elected Fire Chiefs now-a-days. Not saying they have alot of experience either, just saying.
The underlying issue is the organization has issues with manpower and response. Most likely during specific times of the day if not then this can be attributed to alot of things, like low department morale, recent elections, personal life committment, employers are not allowing people to leave like they used to, employees who do leave need to actually make a living, and may not be able to afford punching out, etc.
So in my first response, I mentioned the AHJ needs to do an organizational assessment of the department. They may need to bring someone in from the outside for an unbiased look. Some long standing members can be "damned if we change anything" and that is not making progress into the future. In my experience, after the assesment has been completed, I usually suggest reorganization of duty officers, recruitment of people who are available during the daytime. Then the training officer, division or department needs to adjust the training schedule to match the department's needs like a strong focus on ICS, Communications, Size-Up, Command and Control, and Safety. This training should be for the entire membership. Then I would identify the key players and run a mini fire officer development program. This will reduce the department's liability when you are running an incident.
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Why should it matter if it is an in town or out of town fire? The question asked was if there is NFPA code or requirements on officers being present at all structure fires. The issue was answered by the responses that the role of an officer is to be filled, but it doesn't mean one has to hold the rank of an officer.
To expand a bit, just holding the rank of an officer does not make the person any more competant to become a mandatory requirement on a fire scene. You can have some very young, new "officers" that were elected into their position based off a popularity contest, that have no clue about the role they are filling nor the responsibilities of the office. Whereas you could have a pretty seasonsed, knowledgeable plain ass firefighter with no officer rank who could run circles around some officers.
In the end, there is nothing (nationally) really stating a ranked officer has to be on the scene of a fire, however, the roles should be filled.
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Permalink Reply by Just Plain Craig Moyer on
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Do you know how many fires would have been put out sooner without officers......but that being said, I used to tell the younger officers (we're volunteer), keep calling engines until someone gets there that knows what thier doing.
My thoughts are people make it much too complicated. For most SFD's its water supply, size up, put out fire. That took 2 seconds. But sadly most people forget the first, don't do the 2nd and don't worry about the last because its too cool to talk on the radio. Best thing I ever heard in the fire service, "put down the radio and put the fire out" Chief Merganthaler, Millcreek FC, 1987
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Permalink Reply by capcityff on
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Agreed. Working as an officer in one city could mean they go to two fire each year with nothing but single family houses. While a veteran firefighter may work in a larger city with many types of structures and go to fires every month. I would let that fireman lead me over the officer any day. There's no certain class you can take that makes you a great officer. It comes with experience.
Also NFPA is not some law. Many people don't get that.
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Permalink Reply by Jason Russell Brannan on
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We had encountered an incident where we had an out of town structure fire and at that time the department consisted of 2, 3 man shifts and 1, 4 man shift. Chain of command was Chief, Captain, FF II, and firefighter. This posed a problem at that time with the 2 FF on out of town fires due to either arguments of what need to be done along with the Captain holding the FF II at the station and run the scene from the station. This resulted in a single room and content fire consuming an entire structure along with an exposure storage garage. The main reason was a debate over laying a supply line 400 feet to maintain water supply. There was several questions asked to that Chief as to how this structure was lost. At this time the FF II were all moved to rank of Lt. without pay increase just title due to information he obtained that a Lt or higher must be on all structure fire. At this point they were required to respond 1 officer to all reported structure fires. During the time of the post question there had been incidents with the less than 2 yr exp firefighters arriving on scene and failing to notice a down powerline and luckily was not injured when he stepped on it doing a size-up, along with other scenes where experience could have made the scene more safe. Another incident of an out of town fire where the senior ff gave instructions and was ignored on several occassions, even when doing as the IC from the area department had commanded. My concern was the possible issue that had taken place in the past along with liablity of the senior ff and fire department for something going wrong on scene . Even though responding to out of town areas in many cases there is no response from that area department or upon arrival they choose not to take command when offered considering we are first in on many cases.
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