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Incident Commander: In The Vehicle or On The Street?
We are sending our Battalion Chiefs and Command staff through the Blue Card Command System, which was produced by the Brunacinis, and based on the updated Fire Command model that Phoenix has been using for years. Our department has been a "run it from the street" ICS model for years that has slowly evolved to running most ops from the back of their command buggy (outside). The Blue Card very strongly advocates running the IC from inside the command vehicle (F-250 in our case). This is a completely foreign concept for our Batt Chiefs and the idea so far is meeting some resistance. I would like to hear from anyone who has actually run IC from both positions and give me some pros and cons on the inside the vehicle approach. Thanks
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Ben Waller on
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Actually, you can have it both ways.
You can park the chief's rig with a view of the scene for the times when isolation is important.
You can exit the rig and command from outside if the rig when needed.
Either way, having the chief at the scene makes it the chief's informed choice as to whether or not he/she commands from inside or outside the rig.
The station doesn't offer the chief that choice.
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Permalink Reply by Curt Varone on
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Ben, You made my point. The chief needs to be at the scene so he/she can use his senses. You can't expect the chief to command from a vehicle 2 blocks from the scene in total isolation from disruption/weather/distraction and rely solely on the info provided by group/division/sector officers.
If an IC can command from a command vehicle - do it. Its better and safer. If not, command from where you need to be. That is not to say the IC should be roving around or becoming engaged in any activities. Its just that a command position should not have to be associated with a vehicle..... because while that may work some places better than others, and in some instances better than others, it will not work all the time.
My take may be a bit different than others - I am deeply concerned about someone with wonderful intentions - the best of intentions - creating a standard of care that makes any IC who is not commanding from a vehicle, negligent. That is not right, and puts alot of experienced fire officers at risk liability wise if they have to command an incident from outside their vehicle.
Is commanding from a vehicle better than being in the street, definitely. Can you effectively command every fire from a vehicle, no. If you could - if it were so absolutely imperitive that an IC stay removed and isolated from the fire scene - then an IC should command from a secure office somewhere remote from the scene. I don't buy that.
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On the other hand, you may be forced to command from a remote, off-site position if the incident is large enough, complicated enough, has special hazards, or involves enough other agencies.
If you'll check my earlier post, you'll see that I'm an advocate for "It's situational" on this topic.
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Permalink Reply by Ron Ayotte on
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It is situational dynamic.
One does not need to command a one alarm or two alarm fire in a SFD from 2 blocks away. Major incidents and disasters, such as a hurricane, tornado, earthquake or terrorist attack... yes. In my community, the EOC is at Fire Headquarters.
I agree with Chief Varrone's statement quoted here:
"My take may be a bit different than others - I am deeply concerned about someone with wonderful intentions - the best of intentions - creating a standard of care that makes any IC who is not commanding from a vehicle, negligent. That is not right, and puts alot of experienced fire officers at risk liability wise if they have to command an incident from outside their vehicle."
There are those fire service leaders who will take this to the extreme.
I went to the Brunacini's website for "blue card command" and I have to commend them.. they took ICS, NIMS and the Phoenix method of command, put it all together and charge $295 a head for the online course.
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The decision to command from inside or outside the vehicle isn't limited to the Blue Card method.
Commanding from inside the chief's rig does NOT neccesarily equal "2 blocks away". There are other options for positioning the chief's rig and commanding from inside it.
"One does not need to command a one alarm or two alarm fire in a SFD from 2 blocks away." There are times that one DOES need to command a one-alarm or two-alarm fire from inside the chief's rig.
There is no absolute "right way" to do it. Blanket "you don't need to do it that way" statments sound a little dogmatic to me. I believe that we should practice command based upon a combination of pre-planning, basic principles, and size-up, not dogma.
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Permalink Reply by Norm Tindell on
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We make fun of our chief on hot days and very cold nights, but FETC is absolutely right. He cannot talk on the phone, write on his board and hear all the radio traffic anywhere else.
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Permalink Reply by glenn usdin on
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From wikipedia: Dogma is the established belief or doctrine held by a religion, ideology or any kind of organization: it is authoritative and not to be disputed, doubted, or diverged from.
My question....are there any beliefs about incident command that you do believe can be characterized as dogma?
is it dogma that we must have an IC?
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Glenn,
I can't speak for anyone else, but in my department establishing IC is a SOG for any multiple-unit response or any response where the incident has the potential to worsen outside the control of a single unit.
Examples are brush fires, dumpster fires, and small hazmat spills.
Having an IC is essential to commanding an incident - it's a federal requirement. Their are other forms of "authoritative, not-to-be-disputed" policies, rules, etc.
One of them is a "mandate". IC is mandated by NIMS. A legal mandate is required, regardless of belief.
The IC's position and inside/outside the rig decision is an option.
Requiring the IC to be inside at all times is equally as dogmatic as requiring the IC to be outside.
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Permalink Reply by capcityff on
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Our Battalion Fire Chief on scene is usually parked further away because he gets there later since we only have 7 Battalions in the city compared to the 33 engines and 16 trucks. They also are out of the way then. He shouldn't have to get out of the vehicle. There's no reason that we should need to be told what to do. We all have assignments when we get to work in the morning. When you get on the piece you have a position. You should already know what you do at that position for every possible fire. The BFC can just stay in his car and make sure things are going right.
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Permalink Reply by Childressfirefighter36 on
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All 7 of our Paidmen are IC trained, if the chief is on vacation, things don't on a fire scene don't get any worse. Some of us volunteers had a chance to take an ICS course, but half of us have jobs we can't take a day off from, so I had to miss out on that one.
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"There's no reason that we should need to be told what to do."
You guys can anticipate every possible change in conditions in advance? There's no chance that you'll ever need someone developing strategy or watching your back?
I don't disagree that sometimes the B.C. can do his/her job from inside the chief's rig, but that's a seperate issue from having your fireground operations run with an absence of strategic-level thought or intervention.
It also strikes me as more than a little odd that the FD that cover's our nation's capitol doesn't use the national standard IC program.
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"...if the chief is on vacation, things don't on a fire scene don't get any worse."
At least you've been lucky, and that hasn't occurred...yet.
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