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Incident Commander: In The Vehicle or On The Street?
We are sending our Battalion Chiefs and Command staff through the Blue Card Command System, which was produced by the Brunacinis, and based on the updated Fire Command model that Phoenix has been using for years. Our department has been a "run it from the street" ICS model for years that has slowly evolved to running most ops from the back of their command buggy (outside). The Blue Card very strongly advocates running the IC from inside the command vehicle (F-250 in our case). This is a completely foreign concept for our Batt Chiefs and the idea so far is meeting some resistance. I would like to hear from anyone who has actually run IC from both positions and give me some pros and cons on the inside the vehicle approach. Thanks
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Mark Klaene on
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So as a IC (primarily in Mountain SAR) but also a small VFD for 20 years my first thought is that we are confusing IC with -- Operations. The basis for my statement is that if I am doing the IC job correctly -creating a functional ICS system -- I work the least of any one on scene once the operation matures (T+20 minutes) . Now I grant sometimes as IC I am also the Ops and Plans and logistic chief but if I get so busy that I can't operate outside of a vehicle for fear of an interruption then I need more command staff under me or split into divisions. Operating outside allows you to use all your senses and if I am running OPS then that is something I need. As IC not so much but as a IC I want to be available.
One example is yesterday . We had a rescue 1/2 mile down a trail and 75 ft below the trail. I was at the ICP (my unit) and without a doubt was the person who worked the least on that rescue. But while standing next to my unit a citizen walked up (did not address me but I address them when I saw them standing around) and found out they had useful information about the trail that I could then pass on to the crews working at the site of the victim.
The right answer to the question is the IC works where they do the job the best. But isolating yourself is not usually the right answer and if you are so busy over a long period of time then you are not doing ICS right. Don't get me wrong , the ICP needs to have some access control but be ware of isolation.
So whenever possible separate out the functions. The key to ICS is keeping it manageable and if a position is overwhelmed then it is no longer manageable.
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Permalink Reply by Ben Waller on
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Small fire/rescue agencies generally don't have either the manpower or the need to seperate the functions on a 1-alarm or 2-alarm fire that's what most of the responses are discussion.
Even large fire departments don't usually exceed the 7-unit span of control max on a 1st alarm, so there's no need for a full-on NIMS organization.
In either of those cases, the IC is typically close to the incident. At that point it's about whether it's better for him/her to be able to hear and smell the incident as well as to see it versus cocooning up in the chief's buggy. There's a compromise available -the pull-out command post modules at the rear of the SUV. Those don't get you out of the weather, but they give you more command resources than an 8.5 inch x 11 inch tactical board.
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Permalink Reply by EngineLadder on
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CaptCity I almost always agree with you but not on this one. Our BC has the front of the building the second BC who responds as the safety officer has the rear.
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Permalink Reply by Al "Top" Styles on
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As a graduate of "Blue Card" and as an incident commander, inside is the best place to be. I understand both sides of the "story", but if we are in the "car" we are able to hear radio traffic better ( fireground noise is dimminished), places to put our notes (without distroying them). We can be easily found (not out wondering around, we all will eventually wonder, its our nature) The other side of the story is if we are in the car that we cant "see" the incident, well with good communication from our divisions we don't need to "see" because they will draw us a verbal picture. As an incident commander, we have alot of tasks that we want accomplished and if our feet are on the fireground we tend to "step on toes" beacuse it might not have been done the way we wanted it done so than comes the "let me show you" defeats the purpose of the IC's position. Please tell your BC's that this is a tought transition, but it is well worth it if they "stay in the seat". Take care brother and stay low. Al.
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That system was developed in one of the few places that still has chief's aides (yes, I know that PFD calles them "Command Technicians") which means that if the divisions/groups/company officers/whoever ISN'T drawing you the picture you want, then you have the aide to use as a runner to go find out what you need to know. The vast majority of us don't have chief's aides or the advantages that go with them.
It is also faster to interpret your own visual, audible, and olfactory cues than to simply take someone elses' word for it, no matter how well they are trained or how much we trust them. That saves time, which can be a precious commodity.
The answer to not stepping on toes is to have some self-control and not step on them.
If it takes locking youself in the car, fine. If you can control yourself and keep your thought process and direction at the strategic level without locking yourself in a car, that's fine, too.
If the weather is bad enough to be a distraction (monsoon rainfall REALLY degrades command performance for a lot of us) or if I need resources that aren't available from the command post at the rear of the SUV, then commanding from inside the rig is fine. If the weather is nice and the incident is simple, then outide command is fine, too.
There are precious few ALWAYS or NEVER situations in our profession. Where to physically locate the IC isn't one of them. Unless it's something like NEVER die at a fire, those absolutes are simply dogma.
We're supposed to command through training, education, ability, and command presence, not through dogma.
Dogma makes us inflexible. Inflexibility can lead to some very, very bad outcomes. Sometimes it is necessary for the IC to be outside in order to maintain situational awareness. A loss of situational awareness by the IC sometimes results in funerals or trips to the burn center for the troops, and that is something that should NEVER occur.
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Permalink Reply by Firechief2411 on
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I'm mixed on this one, on small job from the street, on large jobs from the truck due to having the radios and command board in the back for ICS funtions. After a 360 (if possible) I try and allways stay with the buggy. I let operations officer be by the building.
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Permalink Reply by FETC on
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Here is a good video (not a big job by any means) but a good example of the radio "cleaniness" control factor of staying inside your car instead of commanding/communicating from the street level. This IC here chooses to get a 360 from his engine company officer (trust factor) and uses the CAN situational report method on many different tactical operations to further gain knowledge of what is happening. Not to say this incident couldn't have been managed from the street. I agree it could easily been managed on the street. I myself in the past have done my own 360 instead of the first due engine officer. This gives me a better understanding to speed up the decision and tactical order dissemination. The luxury of positioning my car to see as some others have said "has to happen" to manage usually is not an issue either with a decent response time yourself. Must be all top mount pumps in those departments. In my own PERSONAL experience, the buggy is first due more often than not, because it responds while the engine and trucks personnel are turning out, (gear) but we also do not have multiple satelite stations that affect that factor either.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wh32-G8skUo&feature=related
Most of this video the Incident Commander is in a controlled environment and at the end of the video clip he takes it to the street and there is a difference in the environment. My point all along is to position yourself to maintain radio control and not set yourself up to miss a brother who may only be able to say Mayday once... There are many good firemen, absolutely great fireground commanders who, had the unfathomable happen and will take all that to the grave.
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Permalink Reply by capcityff on
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You're twisting my words. Never said said that. Yes, things can go wrong. However we have multiple fires in the city every day. Most are just routine fires that shouldn't be a problem. If a condition did change inside though, how is the BFC going to be more help just because he's 10 feet closer to the building that he was in his vehicle? It's still up to the crews inside to let him know.
Of course if it's a multiple alarm incident or something a little bit more long term, he won't be inside the buggy. He has to work with other chiefs then. Most fires don't go to a multiple alarm though. On top of that, most box alarms aren't even fires.
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capcity, I posted a direct quote from what you said.
That's not twisting your words and you certainly did make the statement that I quoted.
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If you read both of my posts(yes the whole thing. not just a sentence.), then you would understand what I was saying. You took a sentence out and interpreted it the way that you wanted. If you have something constructive to add then please, do so. However ignoring my whole last post and saying that you quoted one sentence, isn't really doing so.
To add on it though, I also never said that we have no strategy. We have written protocols that cover each job that is supposed to be performed. 9 out of 10 fires it works out fine. If things need to be adjusted then they can. That's why the BFC is there. I don't think him standing outside of the vehicle will make him better though.
I'm sorry that you don't like how your nation's capitol runs it's fire scenes. We do things our way because it works. It's a very traditional department that has plenty of officers that worked back when their individual companies were running multiple fires each tour. They do these things based on experience instead of a book.
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capcity,
I quoted you before your "last post"...so telling me to consider it all sounds confused.
If you're referring to the post from which I exerpted the quote, I didn't take you out of context at all. I fully understand the concept of riding assignments - my current department and my previous ones used them too. However, we didn't run the incident from the task level, because that level rarely has the big picture.
Your statement is analogous to a rifleman stateing that it doesn't matter if the General leaves HQ or not, because his rifle squad has assignments and knows what to do.
In both cases, the task-level folks may get away with running the incident based upon pre-determined assignments, but sooner or later the lack of strategic-level decision-making will cause big problems.
Protocol-driven operations are fine...right up to the point when the situation fits no known protocol.
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Permalink Reply by Mark Oomkes on
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Oh how true...........and sad.
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