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How far and how much can you get out of a volunteer?
I attended a class to be certified as Instructor I last week. They were complaining that enrollment was way down in the state classes. They ask what we thought they were were thinking the economy. I know what is going on and tried to make them understand.
Here in Indiana they are putting more and more to get though and pass the states classes. They always say not everybody is cut out to be a firefighter. I agree with that statement but I see more and more volunteers just getting mandatory and not going farther. If your career it may add pay or advance your career. But where is the motive for a volunteer?
I took a drivers op class it was free. My chief ask me why do I want to go though all that when I can drive and pump the trucks. I hear this all the time and not just from my dept. I have more certs than all but one officer on my dept and I am one away from him. I am still a just a firefighter so why should I try there is no advancement in it for me and don't think there will be for a long time. I don't care if I am an officer I am self motivated and gun ho, But most are not.
I see what the state wants but when most of the area is covered by vollies how much can they get. I believe there has to be a happy medium. Or training will stop at the bare minimum. I think thats the opposite of what they want. I believe they are wanting better trained fire depts not less trained.
I don't know if this post shows what I am tring to say correctly. Its hard to explain what I am tring to say. I am not really against the new stuff but how far can they go before it blows up in there face and hurts more than it helps.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Harold Richard Hair on
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okay good topic we have this problem in PA. I have close to 600 hours trining for butler CC and countless more in other agencies includiong EPA, DOH (department of health). will take any and ever training i think i can learn something from to make me a better responder for my county. i have officers that havn't taken a class for 10 years or more. They are telling are new members don't be like him (me) you don't need all that training. i work full time at a gas well servicing comapany 60-70 hours a week and still find time to train. My irlfriend hates me but she is training with me. Training country wide is on decline in vollies and there is no one anwser on how to fix good luck god bless and train your ass off you never know when you will need that tool out of your tool box
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Permalink Reply by Sparky3317 on
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You should add to your post full time too. I know plenty of full timers and volunteers who get through the minimum and stop training.
Its not whether your full time, paid on call or a volunteer though, it comes down to an individual basis. The person has to want to train has to have the self motivation to train.
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Permalink Reply by Cimmaron D Perkins on
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i think this becomes a leadership issue. If you have great leadership, they will follow and want to follow.
Most i see dont do it for the money or the hero statis, most that i see do it for the personal reward and fullfillment. If you have great leadership that is respected most will walk to the moon to make things happen.
How much you can ask and how much you can get, to me depends on how much they are inspired and built up.
New standards and more required training is inmateral as far as how much you can ask from someone.
Quality of leadership and inspration will dictate what one can get out of a group of people that are willing to stand above and go beyond everyone else.
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Permalink Reply by Bull on
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My thought is " DO YOU WANT TO LIVE, OR DIE". I myself want to live. Im on the department to help others. If I cant do that, why be on. I totally understand what he is stating. I myself am gung ho and really enjoy the fire service. I want to be the best I can. I was taught take care of #1, and thats me. The more I know and train, the better I will be, and by taking care of myself, I will be taking care of my crew. We have the same issues here also. Everyone does. I am the Training Officer of my dept because of my commitment to be better and keep everyone up on their trainings. And I believe if I can get one person to feel the same way, maybe they can get one, and so forth. So far we have come a very long way in the past 6-7 years, and we keep striving forward. I have set standards, some of the older ones dont like it, but the younger ones coming in now know what is expected, and its been working out so far. It was not an overnight process, and you need help and support from officers. Sometimes them officers against training need to be weeded out, and with the young team you started with, its just a matter of time.
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Permalink Reply by John Dobson on
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I don't know if this has always been a problem. But we just can't get anyone to commit to following though. They want to join, Then they say "I just don't have time" or they have some other reason for not wanting to start training.
I don't know if they think they can join and just jump on a truck or what. Then we have some that we get though the training and just leave before they ever go on a run.
Now throw in the states two cents worth and we get less and less. We are to the point at my dept where we can't take the manpower hit. We have pushed for everyone to be FFII. Now were going to have to be happy with mandatory & basic if we want to keep the doors open. Its gives me a headache to think about it.
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Bull your 100% correct. We had a guest speaker from the local medivac provider. The first thing out of a officers mouth was to them was "How long is this going to take" in a rough voice. I felt like crawling under the table from embarssment. This guy drove 50 miles to help with training to be talked to like that.
We set up a once a month Sunday afternoon training time and also used it for station duties. Being firefighters we all brought food and a grill nothing payed for by the dept. It was talked about in the monthly meeting so the one that attended the meeting knew what was going on. Well anyway someone drove by while we were grilling and got mad because they were not invited to the "fire dept cookout". Called the chief and bitched so instead of telling them to come to the meeting to find out what was going on. He stopped the training because it was a "bad idea anyway". The new guys are pretty motivated for a while but stuff like this kills morale.
Our training officer makes alot of promises and never carrys though and will flat lie to to me and everyone else. I have been putting the squeeze on them and it moving the right way.
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You sound like me 10 years ago. We had no organization, ya...we had a chief, and asst chief, but thats it. I found out like you are, that there is alot of empty promises, and depending on who is around is how you answer certain questions. And if you want things done and done right, you need to do them yourself...am I correct ??? We had some problems getting new people to join also, and honestly...we USED to be a " Good ole boy" type of dept. But with my stubborness and my will to be better not only for myself, but as a dept as a whole....we are a much better dept. I did learn something from another person on a site like this...He said " Do you think people want to join any kind of organization that is embarrasing, whether its a Fire Dept, Bowling league, Boy Scouts, or whatever ???? Of course not. They want to join and belong to something that people look up to, and can be proud of !!! " Thats when I started on SOG's, Bylaws and Procedures, for guess what...we never had any !!! And again, it does take time, and some luck to try and get people on board. Where there's a will...there's a way !!! Times are tougher and differant than 20 yrs ago. Both parents have to work, and usually have 2-3 jobs at that. And in a small community like ours, all the kids go to college and dont come back because there are no jobs for them around. So yes...that doesnt make it any easier, and I understand other priorities. Try and do your best to keep yourself trained and possibly your dept as well, thats all you can do, and hopefully things will eventually fall into place for all of you !!!!
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Permalink Reply by Bradley Webb on
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I also have a problem with this kind of thing. I used to work for a department that spend a good amount of money sending guys here and there for training and then it just stopped. No reason was given or anything. A few of us are still interested enough to pay for our own training classes. Personally I like working as a Truck co. so I will take any class that has to do with Forcible Entry or Venting or what not, but the biggest problem is that when I get back from these classes and try to help teach the guys these different things, they don't care. The main resistance I'm met with is laughter and when will we ever use that. No one cares.
I will put this in a specific situation. I've been reading Urban Firefighter Magazine (awesome btw, check it out if you haven't) and found that you can use a partner saw and cut the locking mechanism on commercial glass type doors. I had never heard of this before until now and I even went as far as calling the primary lock company around to see how much damage that would do to the lock itself. Turns out in most cases it is cheaper to cut the lock than break the glass in the door not to mention safer. No glass everywhere. Everytime you enter the building you don't have to duck under a push bar. Kind of a win/win. When I actually brought this up to the department, one of the guys said why don't you just break the glass it's easier. Yea but is it easier to replace? No. He's still laughing. He could not understand why it would be better. Then my uncle who's a retired chief told me to quit trying to learn things that didn't matter and listen the guys with experience. I told him flat out, you sould never quit learning. The day you do is the day you should quit. I also told him that there is always an alternative way to do things. What if the glass was boarded up or it was pawn shop and had metal bars on the door? How are you going to get in then? He finally understood my point and quit arguing with me.
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Permalink Reply by Jeff Cole on
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How far you can get all depends on the individual, and what their aspirations are. They may be simply doing what I call "playing fireman" in which because the fire services has no real mandatory ANYTHING, they can just dress up in the costume, hop in the big (fill in your choice of color) truck, and you can cross through the yellow tape. Chances are you have your name sewn on the back of your bumble bee jacket, so everyone will see it and know you are a fireman.
But it ends there. It's all in your ability, your actions, and your profeciency in which you perform any and all the tasks that go with firefighting. Perhaps it's a very unpopular opinion, but it's common to have members who can't, or won't climb ladders, or can't, or won't wear SCBA, yet there is this attitude that "there is always something they can do". So "they" don't really HAVE to do anything! Maybe stretch a line, or pack hose, becasue that seems to be some unglorified duty.
Anyone who joins a fire department with the thought of becoming an active firefighter surely must have seen, at one time or another, the ladders on the apparatus, and those masks and air tanks the firefighters wear. To accept anyone that puts any limitations on their duty, what they will or won't do, just means (to me) they are not capable of being a FIREFIGHTER. Yes...someone has to drive too. OK make an acception for that. Where does it end? When someone is hanging out the third floor window, and your first arriving company pulls up with a few of those "can't's or won't's" , what now? Just reassure the victims. "I know we LOOK like firefighters 'cause were dressed like them, but just hang on, they will be here any minute"
It SHOULD start with National minimum standards, and then step up to intermediate level-type certification, and so on. But with MANDATORY skills requirements. Otherwise, this problem will never be solved. And it is all to common. Get by with the least...because you can! Of course there will be those who will say that too few will actually go through and earn any such mandated training. And of course we won't have any fire department then, right?
I wonder where law enforcement, or even EMS would be if there were no mandatory standards...would there be no police offciers or EMT's?
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Indiana does have a "Mandatory certification". By law you must have that to get in a truck or on the fire ground.
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Permalink Reply by Steve on
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I believe solutions to problems like this can only come from leadership. As others have stated, what are they there to do? If they want to be firefighters, then just make it clear from the beginning that they know what is expected of them - progression and training. At our department, you don't get off probation until you're a FFII + EMT, and you'll get kicked out if you don't get that done in 12-18 months. After that, you're expected to take driver training, and other formal and in-house training as you work to move along from the engine to the tower and then the squad. It's an achievement to work your way to the squad. People who just want a free t-shirt don't tend to stay past the first year.
There's all kinds of other courses that can be taken that are not required, and many take those as well.
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Permalink Reply by Greg Jeppson on
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I applaud you for what you are doing. This is just not about Volunteering and Driving fire trucks this is about you wanting to better yourself and your "Customer service". Do not let those argue or tell you, you do not need to go to school. Yes WE ALL do. Technology is changing everyday and we need to be SMART enough to study and become better at what we do. The "end product" will reflect this new knowledge. Good luck and keep on trucking!
I am a 25 year volunteer and A Volunteer Fire Chief. Yes I am still in school, getting my degree.
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