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Full-Time Firefighters That Work Part-Time with Other Departments
I recently came across a problem within a particular department and would like you guys' input on the situation and any advice on the matter.
Lets say firefighter A is a full time firefighter at XYZ Department. Firefighter A wants to work at another department part time to gain more experience and knowledge as well as supplement income. Firefighter A has had part time jobs before as do most other firefighters in his department do. The chief of the department tells firefighter A that he can't work part time for another department because that is "his" policy. The chiefs policy states that any part time job has to be approved by the fire chief and if approval is granted then the firefighter cannot work more than 20 miles away or 15 mins away response time. In firefighter A's department there is another firefighter, who we will call firefighter B. Firefighter B has a part job that is 45 miles away. And lets say there is another firefighter (Firefighter C). Firefighter C recently started a part time job without the approval of the fire chief. The fire chief has yet to say anything to Firefighter B or Firefighter C on their part time jobs (they aren't with another fire department), but the chief has told firefighter A that he cannot work at another department.
There are laws stating that if you are required to be on call on your personal time then you are to be paid. But the paid time for being on call the person on call must be confined to certain regulations and not be able to go a certain number of milea away etc.
I know there are firefighter that carry pagers and are paged to go to fires all the time and are not paid for on call time, but then again they are not required to respond. Taking that into consideration, then how can the fire chief tell Firefigher A what he can and cannot do on his personal time.
Give me your point of view and any legal advice you have for Firefigher A. What would you do if you were in Firefigher A's position.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Brandon Lane on
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Thanks for the reply. I do recall reading something on union regulations but this department is too small to be involved in a union. What would you say in this situation where there are no union regulations?
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Permalink Reply by NOVAFireman on
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Although it may not be the case here and not that I totally agree with it, but if you are in a local at your primary department and want to work part time for a small non-union department, it would violate the international's by laws.
That firefighter could be a snitch and rat the others out, but who wants to be that guy. Besides, that would only make matters worse for that firefighter. Again, who wants to be that guy?
Dump the idea of working for a small department, and go bigger.
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Permalink Reply by FETC on
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This is not a union issue. And yes the international has bylaws on second employment for union members.
The issue here is the Fire Chief has a department policy. My department has the same policy, it says all part time jobs must be approved by the Fire Chief. They masked it to assure no personal conflict of interest. But it was to assure you were available for recall back in the day. We also have a policy that "all second alarm's" will be a mandatory recall for the entire off duty department.
But over the years, especially in this economy, nobody has told the chief what they do for second jobs, as in reality it is not his business. We also developed many policies that superceed the first two I mentioned, like not reporting to work with any alcohol in your system, so one beer with dinner after work and you can't return for a 2, 3 or 4th alarm.
In your case Brandon, I would suspect Firefighter B and C haven't told the fire chief what they do off duty. If you.... Firefighter A, already went to the chief for his approval, and were told NO, then I would request his reasoning, and then ask why all other part time jobs are not approved?
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The fire chief knows what Firefigher B and Firefighter C do actually.Firefigher B who works 45 miles away everyday he has off was hired with the chief knowing he worked there and was going to work there part time. In the past firefighters have taken part time jobs on without it actually "being approved" by the fire chief. I actually started a lawn care business on my days off and he never said a thing about it. Nothing against the fire chief, but I don't understand why working at another department would be an issue especially if the experience is going to better the department.
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OK that changes the dynamics. Better the department? Possibly or possibly not?
Your chief is probably concerned with a different point of view, you could have lots of "well we do this over there" suggestions. If you get promoted to an officer at Job #2 and then come back to your primary job as just a firefighter: can you switch that mentality on and off? Seen it before where some can't. And the person was a pain in the ass as a firefighter. It clearly is a fire department job issue.
Then add in getting hurt, banged up or exposed an a side gig and then crawling in to claim you were hurt at your full-time firefighter job is a concern. I know, can happening mowing lawns too but some fire chiefs see the title...
Then you have some chiefs who see that getting away from this job is healthy, go to another gig or fish instead of working 60-100 hours in the fire service at 2 or 3 departments.
Doing other things gets the fire service stress off us.
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Permalink Reply by Jason Brooks on
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Several issues here to separate. First, the Union bylaws are up to the individual locals to enforce. The International will not enforce this rule. Each local has to decide if this is actually important to them to enforce. My local could care less. Second, the idea of not allowing part time jobs is too discretional by this policy. It would not hold up to scrutiny. Also, by allowing others to work elsewhere he has set "past practice" precedent. What has been allowed by others must be allowed by all or there will be a grievance that the Chief would lose.
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Permalink Reply by Wayne Peterson on
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What you do in your spare time is nobodys business, only if it affects when you come back to work or report for a page out. If you wish to volunteer on another dept. go ahead.
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Like I said before, it is not a union issue. I agree with both of you about nobody's business. But lets turn it around. If your current employer had an issue with you reporting to work on time or calling out (lets say you are a cabinet maker) because you are a volunteer FF... you would then make a decision to make money or not? Same here, the fire chief is concerned with protecting the citizens and his policy about second employment has been justified in the past.
Then again it also depends on where you or this guy works. Some people work in states that you can be fired for pretty much no reason and it doesn't matter if you have been on the job for a long time or not. There are non-collective bargaining states out there, and unions are pretty much for the title.
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Permalink Reply by Norm Tindell on
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Excellent points. We had a similar incident to the one Mike described occur near here. Two paid guys were working together for a second department when they were both killed in the line of duty at the same fire. Very messy LODD benefits situation for both cities. That's the worst case one can imagine.
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Permalink Reply by Sparky3317 on
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The reason I have always heard when this conversation comes up is the chief does not want a full time firefighter to work at another firehouse because if he gets injured at the secondary job that also affects the chief at the primary fire department because now he has to worry about paying overtime to fill his position.
Which is kind of redundant anyways because you can get hurt at any job doing anything. But thats just the explanation (if my spellings correct) I have heard at different times.
I was on a call department once and we could be on other departments but it could not be in the range of us responding mutual aid up to the 3rd alarm I believe it was, which was a 5 town radious.
And just a suggestion: Firefighter A is union correct? I know in some towns, if the union votes or approves something for the firefighters the chief cannot override that due to contractional issues and the chief getting involved in union business. Now if it is a union bylaw as I read in some of the posts has firefighter A gone to the union to see if they approve of this?
I know of a few union departments in MA, that also have the not working in other fire departments bylaw that have had this issue and even though its union and department bylaw, unions have both approved and disapproved the situation.
I am not a union firefighter and do not know all the ins and outs of being a member of the union but its just some of the knowledge I have picked up knowing many union firefighters. I hope this helps.
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Joshua I can appreciate your knowledge of bylaws, especially if you are not currently a u-member and you seem to have a decent understanding of them. Kudos. So here is something to add to your experience. Union contractural obligations need to be in writing.... if the contract doesn't have specific verbage on a subject, then it falls back under the term "management rights'.
Now as far as past practices, the union could debate a point under past practice (outside of the contract) but ultimately it comes down to the Fire Chief his or her term "management rights".
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Ok thank you FETC I appreciate it
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