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Freelancing on the Fireground
We recently had a day time residential structure fire where another Department had guys freelancing all over the place. We had a Officer from the other Department there who is a township road worker on the roof with his other township worker who is not a Certified FF trying to vent the roof when the IC demanded them off the roof they just ignored it and continued working. What do you do in this case? The OIC demanded them and they still refuse. We need some help with how to handle this problem and what actions to take to see that this never happens again.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Art "ChiefReason" Goodrich on
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If this truly happened, you have to ask what to do?
Wow.
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Permalink Reply by Roy Walker on
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How often do you train with your mutual aide companies. This is necessary so you can familiarize your selves with each others procedures and learn to trust each other. It is imperative at this time to establish your "rules of engagement" so to speak. Who's in charge ,what is expected, areas of specialisation etc. If after these sessions it can not be established what acceptable behaviour you expect ,it's time to call another company for mutual aid. Its better to wait a little longer for a team player to arrive then to jeopardize your company and operations with unprofessional and unsafe procedures.
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Permalink Reply by Chief622 on
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Art...this truly did happen. What are we supposed to do physically drag them off the roof and take a chance on getting assault charges put on us as well as cause a scene infront of the public? We dont know what to do. Their Chief is old school country firefighting at its best and doesnt care as long as the fire is put out. We hold our department to a high standard. What do we do? We can go chew their Chief's ass all day long and it wont change them. Do we need to go to their board? Do we need to call Law Enforcement to our fire scenes? We have a officers meeting this week and i want to take some answers from this forum back to the meeting to see where we take this. Your right this is a MAJOR safety problem.
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Permalink Reply by CHIEF NORMAN on
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Ya I agree Chief France!!! If it’s your scene and there is not a safety officer there and there not following your command or operations chief, just plain and simple don’t call them again and when questions arise explain to people what the situation is. I mean this should be dealt with at the departments head and if that is not an option, then simply call your other neighbor. And in the case they call you for MA your chief officer needs to be in contact with there IC and operations and if its an unsafe situation there wanting to put you and your guys in, then just ask to be relieved and get in your trucks and go back home if there is no working around it.
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Permalink Reply by Mike Schlags (Captain Busy) Retd on
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How can this be any different than dealing with a problem firefighter? The only difference is that you are dealing with a group mentality issue. This is kind of like dealing with a bully as well. The only difference is that we are not dealing with a young spoiled child who is unreasonable if they don't get their way, we are dealing with the Fire Chief of another fire department. What a shame and how totally irresponsible on the part of this chief not controlling his own folks. So, now you are in a position to come up with a way to deal with this nonsense... right?
If it was me that was responsible for coming up with a solution, I would use the same procedure for taking care of any disciplinary issue in the fire service.
Crawl, Walk, Run...
Progressive discipline kind of follows this mantra. Crawl, walk and run translate to the following:
1. verbal warning
2. written warning
3. face to face meeting with individual and the Fire Chief
You have already attempted to verbally correct the problems. You have not been successful because again, you are dealing with a group mentality that presumably has been found to be acceptable by their Fire Chief. If there behavior on the fireground is unsatisfactory, and if you can document safety violations or concerns, then you have everything you need to make this problem resolve or go away. But, there is as twist as to how you present this information.
You must use the chain of command, in other words, correspondence from one chief officer to another, and in this case, to drive the point home, you need to understand and use the power of the cc.
At the bottom of the letter, the written warning that you need to send to the other department, you need to cc or carbon copy the letter to some other folks who will share your concerns for your firefighters, their firefighters and the general public. I am afraid that the only thing a bully understands sometimes is someone who is either physically or mentally stronger and more dominant. Considering that this is not a physical competition, that leaves mental combat...
Additional people to bring on board with this issue, and remember, these are safety concerns, can include the mayor, city counsel members, police chief, and most importantly who ever looks after the legal interests for the jurisdiction in question. You might even cc a copy to the insurance provider.
This is not a game or hobby. People can and do get hurt, even when they are following all the rules. For someone to freelance, you need to document, document, document. Take photographs and video. Build your case from what you already have and move forward with a two-part mitigation effort.
Part 1: Warning letter to the Fire Chief documenting the concerns and what will happen if the problems persist, namely removal from the response cards at your 911 dispatch center. Simply put, they need to be warned in writing that they won't be invited anymore, by anyone to play in the sandbox.
Part 2: This part is not a warning... they still blew you off after Part 1, which in any jurisdiction means that the problem gets both bumped up to someone with a higher pay grade and possible legal issues due to lack of following standardized safety practices. Simply put, the Fire Chief gets to look for a new job. Part 2 requires legal counsel and some serious steps to protect folks.
I hope this helps you with your meeting. I wrote this to give you both options and the ability to cut and paste some of the language. You have what seems to be a very touch political problem at hand. Keeping safety issues as the primary focus, citing what standards they are not complying with, being VERY factual, and not emotional should prove useful for resolving this issue. And remember, if they don't get invited to play, and they know that there Fire Chief is the one responsible, you just might see the problem children figuring out how to play nice, and the chief may be looking for another job.
CBz
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Cap:
I'm 57 and I would have been up the ladder and onto the roof before he could have finished his first FU. There wouldn't have been a second one. That type of insubordination is not only inexcusable, but dangerous for everyone.
Free lancing kills firefighters.
Leadership is a big issue in the fire service, but in many cases, it is the lack of it.
Allowing that kind of cowboy upping should never be tolerated.
Coordination and control gets everyone home.
Cowboy needs to go back to the prairie and stay there, permanently.
And yes; after his refusal, LEO should have been called.
Yes; their board needs to know.
And you might have to sever your mutual aid agreement with them, if you have one, and find another department that "gets it".
Think of your department. If Cowboy gets hurt or killed at YOUR fire, even if it's his own fault, what do you think OSHA, NIOSH, your insurance company and the judge/jury are going to do?
That's a check that you can't afford to write.
IMHO.
TCSS.
Art
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Permalink Reply by FETC on
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I find this hard to believe that a Captain is looking for the answers on FFN. So I am wondering if this incident is probably bigger than your thread leads us to believe. Is the underlying issue a paid vs vollie issue? Town vs. Township or County issue? Is the "old school chief" and your higher standard chief on different pages? If so you probably don't communicate or play well with them on a regular basis... or was this incident the first time?
If your administration chooses to ignore it and chalk it up to a bad day, then you are accepting the behavior and waiting for a bigger explosion on the next run.
I would suggest sitting down and critique the incident at the command staff level (with all towns) highlight the safety issues and formulate a plan to correct the dangerous behavior, example start training together, overlaying the same SOG's or policies for certifications and ICS, etc.
Otherwise, if you department's mindset is we are better than them, and working it out will be too messy... then for everyone's safety, change your run card and remove them from coming to your calls.
As far as being on the scene, when towns can't get along under a single command structure, I have seen a department, (mutual aid to the scene, engine and ladder) actually pack up their equipment and leave the scene because the host town was operating dangerously.
But that comes with alot of backlash and unfortunately lawyers...
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or,
you can purchase one of these, you'll know what to do with it at the right time... this could just be a simple failure to communicate issue... I guarantee that this will get someone's attention and please always wear your gloves. Never compromise safety!
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FETC: What's cool is that your post was obviously written through a lot of personal experience, making your advise that much more sound...
As far as looking for answers on the FFN, I don't find this necessarily a bad thing unless there are deeper issued as you alluded too. Using the FFN as a sounding board, garnishing any and all input that will eventually be given to the Fire Chief is the impression I had here, nothing more.
Depending on the true nature of this problem, and we have only heard one side, your suggestion of sitting down and critiquing the incident at the command staff level is the most appropriate action at this point. If changes are not made, and the problem is a continued issue, a written complaint identifying safety violations and concerns and the threat of cessation of emergency response (mutual aid) would be the next option. And if you were a resident, wouldn't that get someone's attention?
Bottom line, your counsel is sound and provides good direction and discussion points for Captain632.
CBz
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Thanks CBz,
I have had my share of personal experiences. My questions come from usually seeing and underlying issue or root cause. I have been a mediator through my consulting business as well, it usually has alot to do with interpersonal dynamics.
Bill (FETC)
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It shows. Having played in that arena once or twice, I recognized the wisdom of your counsel immediately. I'm glad to hear that you share your insight and judgement as a consultant that saves folks a lot of grief down the road. I'd want you on my side.
CBz
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FETC:
The type of free lancing described by the good captain described my early days in the fire service.
We packed up and left a fire scene that was out of control more than once and we left live fire training when safety was compromised.
It's better now. Thank God, no one died.
And you're right about a sit rep. I mediated my share of heated critiques.
When people are that out of control at a fire scene, then yes; there are most definitely bigger issues at play.
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