Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by John Crabbe on February 3, 2011 at 3:04pm

Odd that on 911 not one, not two, but three buildings collapsed due to fire.

There are differences. Regarding the first question if there have been other steel frame structures that have collapsed due to fire.....yes. There are many type 2 buildings which are steel frame that have collapsed, as for significant examples, I'm not in the mood to do a ton of research.

As for 9/11 and this, let's look at the circumstances surrounding them. You had not one, but 2 fully fuel loaded planes crash into the WTC, this spread flammable fuel in a bigger area. Not to mention you had fire so high up, it was going to take awhile for firefighters to even reach the fire. Then there is the rescue differential, 50 people in China is drastically different than the several thousand on 9/11. Not to mention that the fire mains and water supply was rendered unusable on 9/11.....there was no way to really get any water to curb the effects of the fire weakening the steel. Let's not forget that even though the towers were type 1 construction, the fireproofing protecting the steel was knocked off with the impact.

Now along the lines of WTC 7, where it was not hit, but collapsed, all above issues come into play. Now let's not forget you had two damn near 1/4 mile high buildings collapse, with a few hundred firefighters now trapped, not to mention the number of civilians and police unknown about. That would mean the priorities lie with trying to rescue those people INSTEAD of putting water on the burning building of WTC 7. It is also hard to determine what type of structural damage WTC 7 sustained after the impact on the Twin Towers....same thing about the fireproofing being knocked off can still apply.

Now, taking a brief look at an article on the Wanxin Hotel, it was fireworks, not a persistent fuel source like jet fuel was. There was no compromise structurally due to collapse of surrounding buildings as there was with the WTC. The fireproofing on the steel may quite probably remained intact. Despite the damages, the FF's in China still were able to get some water on the structure and fire, thus limiting the same impact. The building didn't have the same burn time as the WTC.


Do steel frame buildings collapse, yes, is it common place? no. Comparing these two incidents together as to why 3 buildings collapsed on 9/11 and a fire in China are very different circumstances and the whole big picture needs to be looked at, not just an isolated piece about the buildings collapsing just due to fire. Very different circumstances involved.

Permalink Reply by joemac on February 3, 2011 at 4:40pm

There are many type 2 buildings which are steel frame that have collapsed, as for significant examples, I'm not in the mood to do a ton of research.


Sources?

Permalink Reply by Vic Silverfish on February 3, 2011 at 5:29pm

I need no further sources to prove that John doesn't feel like doing a ton of research, I'll take his word for it.

Anyone who's been doing this job for a few years (especially in a city) will likely have seen steel structures collapse as a result of fire and nothing else. It's the first thing they teach in the building construction chapter of FF1, and I thought this was pretty much common knowledge.

It's not common for high rises to collapse because there are a ton of additional safe guards to protect the steel from fire. Sprinklers, fireproof insulation, etc. These were in place at WTC, but could not compensate for tons of flaming jet fuel smashed across multiple floors.

If you are implying there was some conspiracy to collapse the buildings, here is a site that debunks just about every conspiracy theory:

http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military/news/1227842

Permalink Reply by David Lyttle on February 3, 2011 at 5:45pm

I just don't understand why no real investigation was done, why the debris was quickly spirited away before it could be analyzed and why 911 theorist get such a bad rap?

Permalink Reply by Jack/dt on February 3, 2011 at 7:06pm

Eight months and 19 days after the twin towers of New York's World Trade Center were brought down by hijacked airliners, the cleanup and recovery efforts at Ground Zero officially ended Thursday http://archives.cnn.com/2002/US/05/30/rec.wtc.cleanup/

I'm not sure 8 months 19 days qualifies as "...quickly spirited away..."

9/11 *theorists* get a bad rap mostly because (IMO) their entire *theory* rests on the fact that there were explosives planted on every floor of both towers and other WTC buildings. Based on the *theorists* theory, explosives would have to have been planted on all of the critical steel supports on each of the floors. Not only do they claim that the structural supports had to have been *cut* with thermite but they further claim that there were massive explosions on each of the floors [which would have been unnecessary since the structural supports were cut with thermite].

This argument is further used to explain the collapse of WTC7. Now, why would ONLY the twin towers and WTC7 be exploded and none of the other buildings? Or were the other buildings wire for explosion but not detonated? If so then did someone get into the other buildings and remove all of the charges?

How were the structural components, on every floor, wired with charges without anyone ever noticing? I was never in the towers but -and of course this is an assumption on my part- weren't the structural components covered with drywall (or whatever material was used to finish the interiors)?

It appears that the one overarching theme of (all of) the theories is that our own government was involved. This presupposes a great number of reasons but essentially mostly appears to have do with the 'new world order' theory. And it may have to do with CREDIBILITY.

Go to this link - http://2011.consciouslifeexpo.com/panels.html and click on PANELS,
(or just click this link http://2011.consciouslifeexpo.com/9-11-panel.html)
Saturday appears most exciting, with panel discussions on UFO's, anti-aging and longevity, 2012 and 9/11! Imagine, a panel discussion by one of the head conspiracy theorists and founder of AE9/11truth http://www.ae911truth.org/ along with discussions on UFO's and mysticism.

Permalink Reply by John Crabbe on February 3, 2011 at 7:49pm

There are many type 2 buildings which are steel frame that have collapsed, as for significant examples, I'm not in the mood to do a ton of research.


Sources?

I believe Vic has summed it up nicely. Out of the five construction types type 1 and type 2 are buildings where steel is involved. The biggest difference is type 1 the steel is protected and type 2 the steel is not. Now there are tons of type 2 buildings out there from strip malls to warehouses, large box stores to anything from an auto shop to a fitness center.

Now given a fire load in any such building and if there is not sprinklers or fireproofing on the exposed steel, the steel expands when heated. Now couple the fact that there often times are HVAC and other systems on the roof supplying a dead load, it does not take long for weakened steel, now expanding due to heat, to suffer from the dead load weight on top of it and can collapse.

As I mentioned, I'm not in the mood to do research on all the examples out there.

Permalink Reply by John Crabbe on February 3, 2011 at 7:49pm

Nicely said Vic.

Permalink Reply by David Lyttle on February 3, 2011 at 7:50pm

UFOs, anti-aging, longevity and 2012 does cloud the issue nicely... Lets cut to the chase and think. If the conspiracy theorists are right then a crime was committed. Any effort to block an investigation seems like an after-the-fact cover-up. And clearly the guilty would do all they could to avoid a real investigation, even plant bogus comments designed to divert attention away from the real issue.

Do you want the guilty to get away with mass murder, not to mention massive insurance fraud?

By the way there some workers in the towers who said they came to work on many days and there were coatings of dust all over the desks as if some drilling through concrete had been done over the weekends. Also access to the central structural columns could be had through the elevator service access.

It seems to me the towers would not had collapsed straight down but the upper floors would have fallen over to the side leaving most of the towers standing. To collapse all the way down through the path of most resistance does imply that each floor's structural columns were knocked out of the way in a matter of seconds... free fall speed...

We could argue all night long but in the end only a real investigation will provide answers.

The main reason explosives are suggested is because the contents of the buildings, the 4 inch concrete floors, the office furnishing, everything was pulverized to dust! One rescue worker said the largest thing he found was half a telephone keypad.

I can quote a movie too, "...I'm a human being, God Dammit! MY LIFE HAS VALUE!"
I cannot help but feel saddened for those 3000 human beings whose lives also had value and were cut short... and all they were guilty of was going to work to earn a living...

If there is even the slightest possibility that the government or the New York Port Authority or the Owners of the World Trade Center had any involvement... We all deserve to know what really happened.

Permalink Reply by 32ninbk9msq9k on February 3, 2011 at 7:52pm

Numerous firefighters from New York are certain that 9/11 was an inside job. Many Americans are reluctant to believe that a small group of men within our government orchestrated this event. They have a hard time believing that they could kill 3,000 innocent people to get the support of the rest of the nation to go to war. These same people forget about the 17,000 draftees that were killed in Vietnam and the 35,000+ others that were sent off to kill and be killed in a foreign land. The Penagon Papers proved we were being lied to by a string of presidents who said one thing and did the EXACT opposite with regards to our foreign policy in Vietnam. Recently released declassified information about the Gulf of Tonkin Incident showed that it was in fact partially fabricated.
Buildings do not just fall into their basements like they did that day... three times. Retired Army Major General Albert Stubblebine in an easily found video interview makes these same claims.
The World Trade Center towers were brought down by explosives. Un-reacted nano-thermite was discovered in the dust. The WTC fires are now known as the longest burning structural fire. What could have burned that long? office furniture? over 3 months later, the grounds were so hot, workers shoes were melting. All experts agree that the jet fuel was combusted within minutes of the impact. The fires were not hot burning like the one in China, instead it was oxygen starved as evidenced by the black smoke and people standing around the edges. You won't see anyone hanging onto the edge of the Dynasty Wanxin Hotel...

Able Danger identified the terrorists 2 years before 9/11 even happened.

www.patriotsquestion911.com is a good place to see some respectable people make their opinions known.

Billions of $$ have gone into the pockets of the people that manufacture the weapons of war. Many politicians and wealthy, influential families have made a fortune off of this war that has bankrupted you and I.

None of the terrorists were from ANY of the countries we have gone to war with. NOT ONE. The United States of America has killed over 100,000 innocent people in the last 10 years seeking vengeance for the actions of 19 (not even sane(if we believe what we were told)) hijakers that already killed themselves.

If 19 crazy Mexicans hijacked some Canadian airplanes and crashed them into some Canadian skyscrapers, would you be alright with Canada killing 100,000 innocent Americans seeking vengeance?

Permalink Reply by rfdjumper on February 3, 2011 at 7:52pm

So let me get this straight. You joined FFN 6 hours ago. Your first post deals with a touchy subject of September 11th 2001. There are members that either were in New York City that day or assisted with the rescue / recovery efforts in the days and weeks that followed, and you want to stir the pot.

Is this the only question you have about the day 343 Brothers died? Or do you to want to touch on fake airplanes or missles, predator drones, controlled demolition, CIA, Bush conspiracy, Bin Laden lives in Disney World or what?

Not much going on with solar cars in Dayton these days. Well I'll sum September 11, 2001 up for you real quick. Some assholes killed a bunch of Americans in New York, Virginia, and Pennsylvania. Iconic buildings were damaged, or destroyed, and a field in PA had a giant hole it didn't on September 10th, 2001. Emergency responders did their job. Many died that day; because firemen take care of their own, many spent months sifting through rubble to bring a little dignity to the members and their families. Years later brothers are still dying from the events of September 11, 2001.

So please take the discussion to another site and Buff there.

Permalink Reply by rfdjumper on February 3, 2011 at 7:57pm

Only took 32 minutes from joining to jump right in to the stuff, huh. Welcome to Firefighter nation. What conspiracy website are you all coming from???

Permalink Reply by John Crabbe on February 3, 2011 at 8:03pm

I just don't understand why no real investigation was done, why the debris was quickly spirited away before it could be analyzed and why 911 theorist get such a bad rap?

So you are admitting you are a conspiracy theorist? Seems your profile says you are in architecture and engineering, so one would think someone in such fields would understand the reasoning I gave. It really is common sense, the impact of the planes severed many of the protecting systems like sprinklers, knocking off fireproofing exposing steel to fire. The fires were very intense being supplied by jet fuel and other debris, then there is a lot of weight on the structure and the uninvolved lower floors are being impacted with so much weight from the top. Why does there have to be some damn conspiracy about it?

The focus on 9/11 was about rescue, the first priority in firefighting, the hotel in China did not have the same circumstances involved. There was a water supply, there was not the same rescue operation, the fire systems were intact, not destroyed by the impact of a plane.

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