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Close Call - Near Miss - PPV chases brothers out.
The strategy and tactical decision making process to use PPA or PPV when crews are operating at a dwelling fire should not be taken lightly. We have discussed this topic on FFN before and some have stated using this technique is quick and uses less manpower. But at what cost?
I wonder how much strategic / tactical /and right application training was done when these fans were first put into service to every firefighter? The firefighters interviewed mentioned it was supposed to get cooler when the fans were started. Which is true with a good sized exhaust point. I asked myself while watching the video though, where did they expect all of that CFM to go on a SF ranch with a basement fire?
What are your thoughts?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YL0auzmkokQ
PS: My hats off to the three for having excellent personal discipline to wear all of there PPE, and the training to recognize the change in environmental conditions. Glad to hear they lived through the rapid fire increase threat.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by MInnFIrefighter on
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do you think that some of the issue here may have come form not having an exhaust opening on the other side of the structure before starting the fans, and also do you think they sould have cleared the structure before starting the fans?
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Permalink Reply by John Crabbe on
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I agree with the question of training and how much. Since this news crew is in front of a SLC fire rig and BC's Kaufman and Garcia, who promote PPA and wrote books on the topic, are from SLC, I wonder if this dept has trained with SLC?
So what makes me wonder here is the exhaust factor and without adequate exhaust, the fire gets nice fresh air to feed off of. Another aspect taught with the PPA class mentioned is using caution when placing a blower after crews enter. The crew found the fire, but if the basement windows weren't taken, you get this. Luckily the crews got out and this video can be used as a lesson.
For me, I would think cutting the floor by a patio door may have been a better option, but I wasn't there to say what this dept should have done....just what I would do if encountered the same conditions. PPA may have worked here, but like I mentioned, I wonder about the exhaust and if it was even made.
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Permalink Reply by FETC on
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The fact that the department stated they are going to discontinue the use of PP Fans when firefighters are inside, is a knee jerk reaction for a department that has PPA/V authors.
And I wasn't there either, but here is my take on what we can see and possibly learn from:
Whenever a PP fan is started and the smoke conditions change from laminar and quickly move to a forced (turbulent) flow coming from the fan's entry point, that is a big indicator that "the box" or the building we are occupying is underventilated to accomodate the forced ventilation.
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Permalink Reply by Ben Waller on
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Some very, very basic PPV tactics were ignored here.
First, you NEVER start a PPV fan with firefighters between the fire and the PPV exhaust point.
PPV is generally very ineffective for basement fires - where's the exhaust point?
If you start the PPV fan and heavy, turbulent smoke forces its way back to the fan intake point, you should IMMEDIATELY do two things; 1) recognize that the exhaust point is either inadequate or nonexistant and 2) SHUT THE FAN OFF or at least aim the air stream away from the structure.
I'll also repeat something that I added to John Kriska's rules for using PPV..."NEVER use a PPV fan as a thermal imager. If you don't know where the fire is or if it's out, look for it with a thermal imager, NOT with a PPV fan as apparently happened here.
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Ben I have seen the PPV fan used as a thermal imager..... and it wasn't pretty. Luckily it was years ago and before the influx of everyone having a camera or video on scene.
Let's just say the homeowner and his insurance company didn't think the additional total loss of the dwelling post declaration of a room and contents loss stop, was proper ventilation tactics.
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Permalink Reply by Jeff Cole on
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I've been known to dis the PPV tactic quite strongly, and for the reasons mentioned in the replies. It's not the tactic, it's the lack of understanding the how's and when's and why's, and just throwing a fan into play because that's a somewhat new tactic that MUST be adopted.
Like indirect attack and "waterfog" and the writings of Loyd Layman when it was first introduced. It wasn't meant as the perfect tactic for every application.
PPV done correctly is part of systematic approach that depends on our ability to read the conditions when appropriate, and then implement the tactic, with safegaurds in place to adjust our tactics if needed.
Basically, it's so much more than introducing a big wind and hoping for the best. Ya can't just read about it, and then make it an SOPG.
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Permalink Reply by Matt Mikowski on
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After watching this video, it goes to show how important it is to be able to read smoke, and to have back up teams in place.
I will deffinetly use this video for a tranning aid
I am gald all three firefighters got out safe, God bless and stay safe
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Permalink Reply by Art "ChiefReason" Goodrich on
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The video and the comments afterwards reinforces that PPV is NOT "just another tool in the toolbox".
It is a "tool" that can do two things when used: it can either greatly improve the conditions that firefighters and victims are in OR it can KILL you and that rests with the fire departments that purchase PPV and use them infrequently.
Yeah; they're a great tool if used correctly.
But that's a big IF.
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Permalink Reply by John Kriska on
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As an Instructor of PPA with over 20 years experience in using PPA, based on my observation of the video, I would suggest two extremely important points. Number 1, never ever start PPA with crews in the building. If Murphy raises his ugly head as happened here, Firefighters would not be placed at risk. Number 2, the heavy smoke being forced out the pressurization opening after the blower was started indicates either no exhaust or inadequate exhaust. Observation of smoke/fire exiting the opening used to pressurize the building is part of my "GoNoGo Check" procedure used by the Company Officer prior to implementing PPA.
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Permalink Reply by edward monahan on
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PPV and PPA are very effective tools when used appropriately. Its not for every fire. Plain and simple. But when needed its awesome.
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Permalink Reply by Norm Tindell on
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We'll be reviewing our SOP's and watching this video as a result of this discussion. We've been pushing PPV earlier in our tactics and this will serve as a wakeup call to be more careful not to push the envelope any earlier. Thanks, FETC.
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