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Can a 2 1/2" hose be used as a hand line for fire attack?
When I first started in the fire department we had two types of hand lines 1 1/2" and 2 1/2". We were taught that when you attack a fire that you always take your first line in, backed up by a 2nd line at least as big or bigger. We were also taught that if you have light fire conditions you can use small (1 1/2") water, but heavy fire conditions require big (2 1/2") water. I know we now have 1 3/4" hand lines, but I did not know that we no longer use 2 1/2" hand lines.
A couple weeks ago I was out drilling with my engine company and was discussing using 1 3/4" and 2 1/2" hand lines, when to my surprise one of my pump operators who has been around 30+ years and happens to be a retired state fire instructor said "you can not use a 2 1/2" house as an attack line it is to big".
What do you think?
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Ron King (Fire Chief) on
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More wet stuff. Less red stuff! 2 1/2 is great if you have the Firefighters to take care of it.
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Permalink Reply by Don Catenacci on
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Sonny,
The fallacy you have posted is that you ALWAYS need a ton of water to use a 2 1/2. That simply isn't true in some cases. Sometimes a BRIEF heavy hit with a 2 1/2 will break the back of the fire and allow you to move in with smallerlines and finish it off.
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Permalink Reply by Timothy John Dodson on
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Agreed, Chief.
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Permalink Reply by matthew j sweda on
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I wish I could remember the article and the magazine it was in, but I remember reading that some departments are using a 2-1/2" line as their main attack line for high rise fires when connecting to the building's standpipe. Given the pressure loss when having to pump water 10-20 stories up the attack team will benifit from the increased volume when having to tolerate lower pressure. (More wet stuff on the red stuff)
Coming from a small rural fire district I can understand the difficulty with having enough manpower. Hanging on to a 2-1/2 hose for any amount of time is dam hard to do by yourself and should at least have 3 guys ( or gals) on it.
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Permalink Reply by James snapp on
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That's what she said
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Permalink Reply by ashfire on
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Since I have been in the fire service since the 70s, we have had a 2 1/2 preconnect attack line on our engines and we had a 2 1/2 standpipe pack with our 1 1/2 or 1 3/4 pack in case we needed it. We have stopped using or making up the standpipe pack but the preconnect is still on all our engines and it has a stack tip nozzle.
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Permalink Reply by John Gallagher on
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I think the reason for using 2-1/2 in high rise fires is that, if the windows fail and you wind up with a wind driven fire, a 1-3/4 line is not going to make it. Someone on here mentioned a 3 inch attack line, I've never seen or heard of 3in. used as a hand line. Has anyone else heard of it?
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Permalink Reply by Scott miller on
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All of our engines have a 2-1/2 preconnect set up in what is called a Cleveland load. In short the last fifty feet of the preconnect is rolled with the nozzle in the center. When pulled from the engine the first 150 feet pays out like your standard hose load you leave the last fifty rolled and take to your entry point set it down unstrap it and charge the line. This type of load will charge while still rolled. From there two firefighters can manage using the 2-1/2 for attack. The charged rolled fifty feet will pay out like a slinky and makes it easier for the interior crew to advance. It does take training to become proficient with it.
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Permalink Reply by Mark Methlie on
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The retired instructor accomplished his goal, he got you thinking. Are we doing the right thing? What are the risks vs rewards of a 2 1/2" attack line? Is the crew big enough AND strong enough to manoever a 2 1/2" attack line? Is the use of 2 1 3/4 lines flowing 200 GPM a safer alternative? Have you drilled with a 22 1/2" attack line? (This is optional where you use them several times a week.) And the biggest question, which depends on occupancy, is SHOULD we be in there at all?
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Permalink Reply by 55 TRUCK on
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Two Firefighters can advance a 2 1/2" line.
http://www.fireengineering.com/video.html?bcpid=71932443000101&...
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Permalink Reply by John Crabbe on
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I don't agree with that assessment Mark. If what the retired instructor stated is what was written here by the OP..you can not use a 2 1/2" house as an attack line it is to big". That would be more of a direct statement as opposed something to look into and think about. If anything, props should go to the OP for questioning the statement as it is, but in reality anyone with some time in the fire service would know that a 2 1/2 can and is used as an attack line.
I would be more worried about such a person with such background creditentials making the same statement to newer FFs, who may take his word as gospel.There is one thing of trying to get people to think about and look into something as opposed to making such a direct and essentially ultimatum type of statement.
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Two smaller lines, even if together are flowing the same as a 2 1/2 inch line, are not the equal of the bigger line. It is simple really, the heavier stream of the bigger line will remain cohesive and not be destroyed by the heat of the fire due to its singular volume.
The truth is while smaller lines, 1 1/2 or 1 3/4, may be easier and faster to get into service, sometimes all they do for us is allow us to burn down the building to the point that the fire has made itself small enough to be extinguished by that inferior flow. A better compromise would be to go to 2 inch where you can still flow in excess of 300 gpm out to a 300 foot preconnect.
Frankly, one firefighter can advance a dry 2 1/2 to a position where they can hit the fire and then either sit or kneel on the line if need be until more help arrives. The fact that we are even discussing whether 2 1/2 should be used as an attack line is disturbing to me as it seems like a further dumbing down and weakening of the fire service. If the "Crew" isn't big enough or strong enough as a team of 3 to advance a 2 1/2 inch line might I strongly suggest that they get their butts into the gym and make themselves strong enough to do so?
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