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Personal Safety Systems
Hey gang. Just wondering how many of you are equipped with a PSS, not just rope, but the entire package, harness, friction device, etc.
What's the make/model?
Who purchased it for you, the department/city or did you have to purchase it yourself?
If you purchased it yourself, was there any pushback from others on the department or possibly your employer?
If the city/department purchased it for you, what did you have to do to get these? What information did you bring forward?
I'm asking because we are working on at least being allowed to carry ropes (at this point we are told if we use ropes to bail we are on our own, the city will not support us because they were not department issue), but many of us would like to see each of us or at least our SCBA's outfitted with a PSS.
What's the make/model?
Who purchased it for you, the department/city or did you have to purchase it yourself?
If you purchased it yourself, was there any pushback from others on the department or possibly your employer?
If the city/department purchased it for you, what did you have to do to get these? What information did you bring forward?
I'm asking because we are working on at least being allowed to carry ropes (at this point we are told if we use ropes to bail we are on our own, the city will not support us because they were not department issue), but many of us would like to see each of us or at least our SCBA's outfitted with a PSS.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Engineco913 on
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If they said your on your own because they aren't department issue, they are 100% wrong. If you get hurt, the insurance covers it, plain and simple. I would think the potential of injury far outweighs the harm done in a LODD. Tell the city to get their heads out of the sand and open their eyes. I personally don't own any equipment, but my department uses rope for complicated rescue situations. We practice bail outs from a higher elevation of a house with halogen tool and rope. This is YET AGAIN people who should have ZERO BEARING on whats done in fire ground operations trying to tell you what you can and can't do to avoid injury or death.
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Permalink Reply by Spanner 122 on
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I agree completely, but we have been told that if we are using anything that is not issued and therefore not a part of our "equipment" then the city will not back us in our claims with WSIB. Of course it's horse shit, and if the city didnt back us and WSIB didn't cover us because we used a rope to break our ankle instead nothing and wound up dead our Union and it's lawyers would be all over them. Scare tactics I guess, but I am really not sure what they're trying to scare us out of doing... buying our own gear so they don't have to? I suppose there would be some legal onus on the city if we do not use the equipment properly. We could then turn around and say, "The city wouldn't provide it, so we had to provide it for ourselves and look what happened."
Hey, the more I type, the more it sounds like the city should be scaring itself into protecting us better... lol!
We have high angle stations as well and we have been trained on body belays, hand bailouts, hose bailouts, scba tank belays... but again, not allowed to buy the rope. Weird, eh? Of course this was not scheduled training and we had to arrange it on our own. So weird how when people become Cheif's they become allies of the councillours insteaf of getting the councillours to be allies of ours, eh?
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Permalink Reply by Lt2406 on
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You may want to look accross the border into NY they just passed a state law requiring every dept in the state to equip every firefighter with a personal bailout system, (EXCEPT NY CITY)
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Yes, I have this information. The exemption withFDNY is because they are already fully equipped and over 1 million, but I have seen what they are using; the Petzel PSS. It's a great, easily deployed system. Some may say it's a little heavy, so we're hoping they are able to scale it down a little to appease those. It's a system I would love to be using.... maybe with any luck we too will see this sort of legislation. Our city/province/country is very reactionary, so it will take some time unfortunately.
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Permalink Reply by George Grammas on
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If you require any information in regard to the Personal Safety System the FDNY is using and why we choose the components we did , you can contact me and I will forward as much as you need.
There seems to be a lot of misinformation out there in cyber land. This needs to be corrected before someone gets injured..
George Grammas,
Ladder Co.102
PSS Unit B.O.T. FDNY
firesburn@msn.com
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Permalink Reply by Jason Brooks on
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I use a RIT Rescue Systems class II harness in my gear along with a 50' rope and biners. This is the simplest system for me and I know how to use it. It is irrelevant what system you have as long as it works for you and you train with it in order to be comfortable with it.
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What is your plan when you don't have a tool or an anchor point to wrap and attach your biner too.
Also what material is your rope made of and what is its failure temp. and its resistence to shock load, Cut resistance, and is this system preconnected to your harness or do you have to make that conection while having the worst day in your life.... will you remember to keep your brake hand on the rope when your rapidly exiting the window??????
Are you seeing my point. There is a lot to think about in addition to training under normal conditions, there is nothing normal going on when you are stuck in a position were you must bail out a window to save yourself. Remember we are not jumping out of windows because the room is charged with smoke , it's because it's unbareably too hot to stay....and is about to or worse yet lighting up.
GG, L-102
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Hi George, I'm glad you're here. It makes perfect sense to have a complete system. I would love to be able to carry one, but the sad reality is, our management does their best to be sure we can't. They tell us that if we have to bail and are injured while using something that was "not approved by the city for use" that we would be "on our own". I would have to think this is completely false. who in their right mind would see their own firefighter lying in a hospital bed after bailing and having to jump a certain distance or even with a twisted ankle and unable to work, and tell them they are on their own? But, this is the "help" we are getting from up above. We were told by chiefs, CHIEFS, that we should be able to A-pull the hose out the window and slide down, B-find an extension cord and use that (I kid you not). I assume these are options if we aren't already dead. I can't for the life of me understand why those who are chiefs cannot see this (although both of our deputies have never worked on the floor... great).
Anyway, sometimes all we can do is ropes and biners because we can't get the training required for the entire system. We are incredibly behind the times and unfortunately we feel it's going to take an incredible tragedy to catch us up. We almost lost 5 firefighters last year who were trapped, they escaped, one is still not able to come back to the floor, the other just returned (miraculously, he was basically broken and/or burned from head to toe), but this was not enough... "ropes would not have helped them." Sigh... management.
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First, I am a rope guy. So my instinctive rope training will take over. Second, I use nylon NFPA certified escape rope. Approximate 350 degree melting point. If my ass is that hot, it's already too late. I precoonect to my harness enroute. A tool is always available. I stress, training and familiarity to all that I sell the systems to as well. Do not just buy it and say that you have it. Learn to use it. Just because the PSS requires you to have been through a factory authorized trainer, does not mean that a ton of the guys buying the system will ever train with it again. I do not care what you use, you must be able to use it and be comfortable with it when you need it.
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Please be careful in weighing out your Risk vs Reward factor, apearently upper management has very little if any reguard for your safety after hearing those sugestions.
Stay Safe,
GG
FDNY, L-102
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Well I'm glad your a rope guy , however I have found thru many tests that comfort in using rope bail out systems varies from one person to the next, and a more fail safe preconected system that gives you options for anchoring and automaticaly catches your fall, should you forget in your haste to hold your rope with your brake hand is the better route for most.
Don't believe me, run your own tests.
Take a group of your bail out trained firefighters sometime and put them thru a search drill in a heavily charged drill site without telling them in advance about the bailout test, and at some point tell two or three of them to get out, I think you may be suprised,some won't even remember they have a bailout sys. let alone activate it. Make sure you don't do this from more than 6ft. Ht. and have some kind of safety net or air mat for fall protection.
Record the time it takes them from the time you tell them to get out, add a little more anxiety and stress by yelling continualy to get out. This will usally result in a failure to forget some critical steps or even to get out at all in an acceptable time. How much time is that? you better be able to get yourself out within 30 seconds or less, your gear on average will only protect you from a flashover (worst case scenario) for about 20 sec. give or take a few, and thats in a controled lab test.
And yes you are correct about continued training it is a must to make this more reflexive rather than a , think what to do next event. You must have options already planed.
One more note, your nylon rope will melt and result in failure when tied to a tool in a room about to lite up, why not use a Kevlar or Technora escape rope which has higher heat resistance and cutt thru properties which will give you a better chance of survival. With your bunker gear on 350 Deg. temp. are tolarated rather well, thats the problem you don't feel how hot its getting until its unbareable and its hotter that 350 deg. We have a flashover simulator at the B.O.T. and tempetures at the 3 ft level are 500 deg. Firefightes tolerate those temps. for short periods without a problem, it shows them that they should have been out of there or putting the fire out, not staying ...
I think I've said all I can, Good luck and Stay Safe....
GG
FDNY, L-102
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I do not remember the guy that did the tests. But, there was a guy in Pennsylvania I believe that did all sorts of live fire tests with the different NFPA certified escape ropes on the market. They had the tower up to temps that were so hot that they even burned some of there own guys in the process. I know that the nylon will begin to melt at around 350 degrees. If I can find this test I will try to post a link. It was interesting to see that all of the ropes held for well long enough to make an escape and then hang on them.
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