The Social Network & Community JUST for Firefighters
Where's your "Proper" PPE ?!?!?!?
Can anyone explain to me why it seems the mid-west and east coasters have such a hard time wearing the proper wildland ppe on fires? I am forever seeing pitures of various levels of dress; from "full bunkers" all the way down to levis and t-shirt...... At the very least, WHERE IS YOUR SHELTER!!!! Now don't get me wrong, I see it on the west coast as well (however, not very often) and I understand that there are A LOT more volunteer dept's over there and most have little to no budget and some require members to buy their own gear. But come-on!!! We need to be safe out there. And please don't get me started on some structural dept's mind set reguarding wildland firefighting......GRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!
Replies to This Discussion
-
Permalink Reply by John Crabbe on
-
Ric,
Foremost, I am not passing judgement on you, I stated you cast a wide net without knowing all the circumstances involved. You are in the western part of the country that sees more wildland fires than what the east coast and midwest do. If you haven't really worked in those depts or understand the differences, then how can you make such assertions? Based off of videos? Please. That doesn't account for the overall picture.Now it is fine to bring up the topic for discussion and you have some valid points, but there is no need for the finger pointing without truly understanding all circumstances involved with an area or dept. In my area, we do have some wildland area where we have responded for such fires. It was only a couple years ago that a grant was obtained for wildland coveralls, prior to that we had some training in wildland suppression, but we don't have near the number of incidents that you may see. Prior to having the wildland equipment all we had was structural gear to rely on and the only reason we have that stuff now is because of a grant.
In my area of the state we don't have the same type of wildland issues that you may see, so the focus isn't on the wildland aspect as it is the structural etc. Budgets are tight and it is a stark reality when it comes to the big picture, so the balance becomes focusing on the priorities of what we do use more often as opposed to what is used less often. This isn't an excuse, but a reality on the situation. If it comes down to maintaining staffing or new wildland equipment, I'm going to take the side of staffing.
Another aspect is in the northern part of the state where we do see more wildland fires, the state DNR is in charge of operations. They do have much of the same equipment and tools, and training etc as you may see. Now there are smaller, rural, departments in those areas that tools and equipment may vary, but in most wildland fires, it is the DNR responding as opposed to individual depts. I can't speak on the other states, but that is a difference we see here.
As for my HAZMAT cert, so what. That is a small part of the story, I don't really care that much for HAZMAT, I'm not on the team, nor do I apply that training. It was a prerequisite certification at the time, to get on the USAR team. Now that doesn't mean if I saw issues from some videos of other departments, that I wouldn't provoke changes or count on just "being lucky", but my approach would be different.
I do believe videos can be very useful in the training realm of things, both in the good and bad. However, instead of blanket judgements for an entire area, I would be focusing on what can be learned for the crew and departmental aspect. Basically, what can "WE" learn from this and how do "WE" prevent this from occurring or how do "WE" apply what we have to obtain similar results, etc.
You make it seem as though because you saw videos of wildland firefighting from the east coast and midwest area, that is how things are done in the widespread area. I'm quite sure I could find a multitude of videos from your area where there would be some headscratching and to learn from, but would it be fair to believe that those videos represent the whole widespread area? I would bet not, so why cast a wide net?
-
Permalink Reply by capcityff on
-
I'm with John here. You're still not catching on to what he is saying Ric. Why would we spend that much money on wildland gear when we don't have them?
I work in Washington, DC. We have one of the highest population densities in the nation. It's 62 square miles of land with a population of over 1.5 million during the day. Pretty much every piece of land is covered by a structure of some sort.
My point is that they just don't happen. We have some parks that started up last year. It qualified as a wild fire I guess and we have a brush truck for that reason. However that's the only time I can remember a fire like that happening. So why buy wild land gear for that event that might happen once every 15 years? Not to mention it will never be a big fire since its just a park? It really makes no sense.
Someone else mentioned, "If you don't have the proper PPE, get off of my fire ground". Really? We should just let it burn then?
-
Permalink Reply by Ric Smith on
-
Hi DC,
In regards to your response I'll ask you this one simple question... If your Dept found the need to purchase a wildland engine, then shouldn't the firefighters staffing it have the proper training & equipment to safely do the job?
I'm sure they do for all the other types of rigs in your Dept (ie: Engines, Trucks, Rescues... ect).
Also, has your Dept adopted NFPA standards? If so, the Union should be fighting for NFPA compliant equipment to do the job. I'm quite sure they do for other areas of the job.
-
-
Alright John,
You seem to be more hung up on who I seem to be pointing fingers at instead of hearing the message. So let me say this VERY LOUD & VERY CLEAR....
I am saying this to EVERY Dept in EVERY area of the Country, IF YOU HAVE THE ABILITY OF FIGHTING A WILDLAND FIRE (brush, forest, grass, ect...) THEN YOU SHOULD BE FIGHTING FOR PROPER TRAINING & PROPER EQUIPMENT TO DO THE JOB!!!!
You keep harping on equip vs staffing.... That statement is pure crap! That's like saying you would rather go without an SCBA (for fighting interior structure fires) and have an extra (1 or 2) firefighters for the ENTIRE Dept (NOT per shift or station) for 1 year. That's the MAX cost for wildland gear. And believe me, those SCBA's cost WAY more (both initial & ongoing costs)!!!!
If you're not willing to enter and fight a working structure fire without the proper (if not "Latest & Greatest") PPE, then why settle for anything less then the proper "Latest & Greatest" equipment for fighting wildland fires?
Please take a moment to think about any piece of equipment or training that your Dept has spent money on (or continues to spend) & requires ongoing training for that you (or anyone you can think of) have YET to actually use on a real emergency. All on the grounds of "We might need it some day".
And finally, I don't have to rely on just videos to make my point... I have numerous funerals and disabled firefighters for that. That includes a friend of mine named Dan Packer (Fire Chief for Eastside Fire/Rescue in Washington State) who was burned over and killed on the "Panther Fire" in Northern California.
We firefighters demand and fight for the best training and equipment available so we can do our jobs safely... I'm saying continue that fight to include ALL areas of our job. I believe we all want to do our job and go home safely at the end of every shift. It only takes ONE mistake on ONE fire in ONE moment of time to end everything... Don't let it be you or a firefighting family member!
On a side note.... If anyone has a 100% guarantee (to include mutual aid responses) that they will never EVER respond to wildland fires, then this discussion is not directed at you.
-
-
My mistake, Chief Packer was with East Pierce Fire/Rescue not Eastside...
-
-
Can anyone explain to me why it seems the mid-west and east coasters have such a hard time wearing the proper wildland ppe on fires? I am forever seeing pitures of various levels of dress; from "full bunkers" all the way down to levis and t-shirt...... At the very least, WHERE IS YOUR SHELTER!!!!
followed up with...
It's been a few years since I first posted this question and we STILL can't seem to get it right........
PEOPLE!!!! We need this to be a priority in our departments! I know our budgets are in the toilet, but fires DON'T CARE! Please keep on your upper management to provide proper training & PPE.
Ric,
I do get your point here and understand what you are talking about, but your delivery sucks. I am putting out a different perspective from an area that you have readily admitted you haven't worked in, but are basing your comments off of videos etc. I have further expanded upon your original question of "Can someone explain".....and your singling out of an area as opposed to the overall picture. You either don't like the explaination or you don't like the challenge to your words. Why put it out as a discussion if your goal is to make a statement??
You keep harping on equip vs staffing.... That statement is pure crap! That's like saying you would rather go without an SCBA (for fighting interior structure fires)
Why is it "pure crap"? because it doesn't toe the line you are drawing? OK, let's replace the staffing argument with that of say SCBA etc. Again, it goes towards what is used more frequently and to the overall budget. The budget issues are a reality and it is easy to feign off other issues because of your passion to be taking precedence. Is wildland the aspect important? Sure. Is it necessarily a priority over other aspects in the grand scheme of the budget? Debatable. Quite frankly, there is an overall picture to be looked at and everything should be taken into account. The way you are pushing the wildland aspect, makes it appear is you are feigning off other departmental priorities....and to me, if that is the case, that is pure crap.
If you're not willing to enter and fight a working structure fire without the proper (if not "Latest & Greatest") PPE, then why settle for anything less then the proper "Latest & Greatest" equipment for fighting wildland fires?
Having proper and "latest and greatest" are two different issues, typically in the realm of cost. Knowing your equipment and understanding limitations is a big part of being safe, not just having the latest and greatest out there. PPE is most definately a consideration overall, but going back to CapCity's comment, if faced with a wildland fire and if all you have is structural turnout...do you just let it burn? That is the aspect as well. Sure having such an incident may make the case to prioritize for equipment, but training and understanding limitations can go further than just having latest and greatest.
Please take a moment to think about any piece of equipment or training that your Dept has spent money on (or continues to spend) & requires ongoing training for that you (or anyone you can think of) have YET to actually use on a real emergency. All on the grounds of "We might need it some day".
And in the grand scheme of things, there is a ton of stuff out there that can fall into this catagory. The issue comes down to the priorities and frequency of use when the budget decisions are made. Take for instance a dept that has experienced several CO calls, gas leaks, etc and rarely has a wildland incident, and then have the budget come down to outfitting with multi-gas meters or new wildland gear. That is the point, it is about looking at the overall picture.
Now, I'm sure every dept has something that is a "nice to have" and seldom if ever used, but there also tends to be alternatives to the tools as well. Take for instance a piercing nozzle, sure plenty of applications and uses, but are there alternatives to the tool, or at least training and tactics to accomplish the same job? Absolutely.
We firefighters demand and fight for the best training and equipment available so we can do our jobs safely... I'm saying continue that fight to include ALL areas of our job.
I agree, I do, and who is to say that we aren't fighting for stuff? It boils down to the overall picture and to prioritize, and that may mean what YOU may see as a priority, may not be the case elsewhere.
Again Ric, you asked for someone to explain things, I'm providing a different look that doesn't seem to fit your mindset. I have mentioned how as a dept, we have had wildland incidents, but limited to structural gear up to a couple years ago. We have had some great training and considerations in the realm of what we have and how best to use it, but didn't have the wildland coveralls for several years.
We DID get that equipment after fighting for and looking at ways to get it, only coming in the form of a grant because the budget has been so tight. Yet, that is just one aspect of the picture, we don't have the axes, picks, flappers, SHELTERS, etc, etc that you may see where wildland fires are more frequent, but we train on recognition, LCES, and to know our limitations. From a training standpoint, it costs nothing to learn from other incidents and to look at what we have and then train to how is the best way to use it if needed. We can continue to fight to get such tools etc, but it comes down to what we see more and what is used more.
Quite frankly, it comes down to what the area experiences more. One can look at the news and see videos of some large wildland fires out west and what you may be up against. Not really the same applications here. For us, the reality is if a wildland fire were to really take off, it will now affect structures and neighborhoods. If that is the case, what is going to be the priority for PPE? Wildland coveralls, or structural gear for the multitude of structures. That is what it boils down to, what the INDIVIDUAL dept faces and sees as priorities.
-
Permalink Reply by Jim Conrad on
-
I just watched the Gordon Graham presentation on Risk Frequency while attending the S-336 class the state of MT put on for our dept. For us wildfire is a High Risk, High Frequency event. Something we are trained for and see alot of. Structure Fire is a High RIsk, Low Frequency event for us. We have the gear and some training but we dont see a lot of structure fire. Our dept can get complacent with wildland because we see a lot of it. Our guard is always up with structure fire. Training helps stave off our mindset of it being "only a grass fire". If a person happens to read this post even if they are not part of the debate i would highly recomend having a cup of coffee and watching Gordon Graham on Risk/Frequency. Its on youtube.
-
Permalink Reply by Peter Reilly on
-
Hi all,
I agree with John on this , the big picture on this comes down to money . In South Florida if you are going through the fire academy the wild land fire fighting is now part of the course. In the past a few of us paid for the course out of are own pocket. As for the gear we pooled are money together and bought are own. Witch is not cheap by the way. In South Florida when we do get brush fires the temp is about 95 degree and when you are wearing full bunker gear makes things a lot hotter. But the thing is, at lease we are trying to do the right thing. The city that I worked for just did not have the money . The fire department had to take a 25 % pay cut two years ago.
-
-
I wouldn't call a brush truck with a booster line a "wildland engine". So no. For the most part it's used at the stadium for Nationals games.
I'm not sure if you've ever been to DC, but it's an urban city. Like I said, one of the densest cities in the nation. There is no wildland unless you consider a few small parks that. Think Central Park in NYC.
I take it you don't operate on high rise fires, respond to subway incidents, or train at the level we do for terrorism. That's because they aren't an issue in your area. Much like wildfires aren't here.
Are we trained for all rigs in out department? Nope. That's another difference in a big city department. You don't just sit around at the fire house and hop on whatever truck is needed when the run comes out. If you're on the engine, you're on the engine. Everyone can ride an engine or a truck for the most part(paramedics don't ride trucks) if you are in the operations division. EMS only obviously do not do so. At times, people with experience can get a detail to a Rescue. However to be assigned to one, you have to go through special training and a separate hiring/promotion process to get into the Special Ops division. Same with other pieces of apparatus. We probably have 200 units in DC.
So it's really not worth having the wildland training or equipment in a city like ours. We haven't had a raise in seven years. I'd rather the money be spent on that.
Last, the DCFD has been a full time paid department since 1871. We've managed since then so I'm not too worried about a wildfire breaking out in the near future. Not to mention the city is now a concrete jungle.
-
Permalink Reply by Don Catenacci on
-
Ric Smith,
How about this. My career urban FD fights maybe 2 or 3 grass fires a year, all far less than a city lot. But you would have the city buy 100 sets of wildland gear for pissy little grass fires. Yeah...NO!
In today's tight budgets that makes no sense at all.
-
-
Gordon Graham! I love it, hopefully someone watches it.
-
-
Our grassfires...Low Frequency/Low Risk.
- ‹ Previous
- 1
- 2
- 3
- Next ›
© 2024 Created by Firefighter Nation WebChief.
Powered by
