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Bad SOP's on driving
Here is a question about our local SOP's on driving our ambulance. Right now it says that its the driver and crew's discretion to use light and sirens. In otherwords, it's up to us to decide if traffic condition, patient conditions, road conditions etc... warrant the need for lights and sirens.
The proposed change would state that if there is a patient on board the driver MUST use the emergency warning lights on the vehicle. In other words, we would have no discretion on whether we should use lights and/or sirens at all. And typically it would mean that we would always have lights on and then turn on the siren if we felt we needed it.
What are your thoughts and comments on that?
The proposed change would state that if there is a patient on board the driver MUST use the emergency warning lights on the vehicle. In other words, we would have no discretion on whether we should use lights and/or sirens at all. And typically it would mean that we would always have lights on and then turn on the siren if we felt we needed it.
What are your thoughts and comments on that?
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Rahn Abbott on
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Thanks, a lot of states have a laws similar to this. I don't think that would help a lot because they would just say "Well, this isn't Tennessee." In Montana you are not required to have both lights and sirens so I have to play more on the reasoning of why you wouldn't want to do this all the time.
Thanks for thinking about it though.
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Permalink Reply by Joe Stoltz on
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You're welcome Rahn - let us know how you make out!
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Permalink Reply by Christina McLean on
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I work in a very busy system and we take a lot of calls. Basically it is up to the crew's discretion to use lights and sirens for patient transport - we get more than our share of BLS transports. Dispatch will "respond" us - lights and sirens - to every call with the exception of staging calls (unsafe scenes) or out and out BLS transports from a facility - which are pretty rare for us. We are instructed to NEVER run lights without sirens because of the liability issue, though this rule is broken at 3:00 AM through a rural neighborhood more often than not. We also are required to let dispatch know if our status changes and we have to respond during our transport if the patient's condition worsens, etc. I believe that most crews only use the lights and sirens when absolutely necessary.
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Permalink Reply by John DeCann on
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When your ambulance service is sued for killing someone while responding with lights and sirens to a band-aid call the members will change there minds. In my humble opinion that is a flagrent disregard for human life..and the safety of the people of your community. You might want to ask your insurance carrier about the liabilitys that lights and sirens impose. Your departments vehicle insurance must be huge if they know your practice. Doesn't your dispatch give some type of priority code to calls when assigned? EMD is a commercial product that my home county uses and it perscribes the method of response to allow for the most appropriate and safe response for the public, and the patient. I work for a small commercial company and my boss (the owner) is a police officer, and if he caught us going lights and siren to a BS call..he would fire us on the spot..its unsafe and downright stupid. I would be happy to send you some of one of my employers SOP's on ambulance operations. The lights and sirens are a privelage that we have been granted by NYS V&T laws..and you might want to research them when looking to change your companies SOP's.
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John, I would be interested in seeing specific SOP's. I did pull a generic recommended SOP from NYS that addressed the V&T laws. It was part of my information that was given to the Ambulance Service.
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Thanks everyone for your replies. Here is an update to the situation. I have found some information online. Most of it was studies. Some of it was generic recommended SOP's from NYS and their V&T laws. This is a volunteer ambulance service. So, since I will be working my real job the night we have the meeting to discuss this, I have given a letter stating how I feel along with all the research I have done to the "Member at Large" who will take this to the meeting for me.
Today, I was on a run with this service and he said he looked over the information, and he talked to the Vice Pres. about it as well. He felt I made some very good points and asked if I would be willing to spearhead a driver training course that would let everyone know when it's appropriate to use lights and when it isn't.
I don't know if I am up to that task but I told him I would be willing to look into it.
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Permalink Reply by Wolfy Lang on
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Best rule of thumb, if your lights are on, your siren should be on unless you are parked at a scene. If you are mobile and lights are on, sirens.
Just a safety thing all around.
Wolfy
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Permalink Reply by Oldman on
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This is the two D's. DANGEROUS and DUMB, and anybody who proposes something like this hasn't got the common sense God gave a rock. Ok, sorry for being rude.
I grew up on ambulances in rural America. Made my first run at age 6, because my father picked me up from school and caught a run. They didn't even do this in the 60's when all their only training was Red Cross First Aid and responded with a driver only. Now, if I'm on a straight stretch of road 30 miles long at 3 am, I may have the lights on but no siren when transporting an urgent patient. But if I'm transporting someone with a case of Prudentialitis, or with a positive Samsonite sign, I don't think so Scooter. I didn't go to EMT/Paramedic school for hundreds of hours to be told by management how to transport MY patient.
I'm not sure who your department is insured with, but they might be interested and have an opinion. My department uses VFIS, and I know half of the company would stroke out if we even considered such action. The law in Texas says ... in addition to warning lights, an audible may be used...(sic) Now department policy basically reads like most others, if you run lights, you run siren, here again common sense is allowed.
There are many studies which show conclusively, that even running lights and siren wont save but maybe a minute or two in the response. Is this worth killing civilians, the patient, not to mention me? I'm sorry, but I like ME more.
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I agree. Here's a snippet from the NYS V&T law regarding authorized emergency vehicles:
(b) The driver of an authorized emergency vehicle may:
1. Stop, stand or park irrespective of the provisions of this title;
2. Proceed past a steady red signal, a flashing red signal or a stop
sign, but only after slowing down as may be necessary for safe
operation;
3. Exceed the maximum speed limits so long as he does not endanger
life or property;
4. Disregard regulations governing directions of movement or turning
in specified directions.
(c) Except for an authorized emergency vehicle operated as a police
vehicle or bicycle, the exemptions herein granted to an authorized
emergency vehicle shall apply only when audible signals are sounded from
any said vehicle while in motion by bell, horn, siren, electronic device
or exhaust whistle as may be reasonably necessary, and when the vehicle
is equipped with at least one lighted lamp so that from any direction,
under normal atmospheric conditions from a distance of five hundred feet
from such vehicle, at least one red light will be displayed and visible.
I've heard other people from other departments state that "IF you use lights the siren HAS to be on, that's the law!" I disagree; it makes no sense running down a country road at 3 AM to a call with lights on, running the siren for no one's benefit.
I put the words "as may be reasonably necessary" in bold to highlight my interpretation that it's up to the driver's discretion if and when to use audible warning devices. From what I have seen other states have very similar wording in their V&T laws also.
Now - in an urban environment it makes complete sense since there are many driveways, alleys and people on foot who should be warned of an emergency vehicle's approach well in advance. And in the country the siren MAY reduce the number of collisions with wildlife.
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Permalink Reply by George on
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As a dispatcher and part time emt you run lights and sirens to calls unless its a nursing home call thats routine.(By that I mean doctor vists, etc.) After you arrive on scene and there is no one critical then you run with out. You still observe all rules of the road. You dont really know for sure that any call is a BS call till you arrive. We talk a lot about the frequent flyers with chest pain. But do you know for sure till you get there? I think in Tennessee you are allowed 10 mile over speed limit. I know of some units that have had a good butt chewing for running faster. So my thinking is lights you have siren untill you know for sure otherwise.
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Having run out in rural Pasquotank and Camden countys in North Carolina (out on the coast) Sirens make GREAT deer deterents ....
Just an opinion....
Wolfy
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Permalink Reply by Marc Hansen on
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A few months ao a ems service in my neck of the woods was involved in a MVC that resulted in the deaths of the two motorists that were struck by the ambulance. The unit was enroute to the hospital with a pt that had a valid Do Not Rescusitate orde, they were going with lights only. In the first days after the accident there was a lot of press over whether the use of lights for a pt that was just going to the hospital to die should be considered an emergency. It was pubilicy stated at the beginning that the ambulance was not using its siren(which is the law in PA-statue numbers available upon request) and the problems started from there. Try searching www.pittsburghpostgazette.com for past articles and you will see more info. In the course of the investigation it was found that the driver had alcohol in her system and that led to a different mess. However I know a few of the members of that department and know that all of them had a very bad week with very little sleep knowing that they had just lost an ambulance and a crew for something that may or may not be considered an emergency. Not to mention the bad PR that comes from being involved in a fatal accident and the worries about the sure to come wrongful death lawsuits.
We all think it wont happen to us but it frequently does. One look at the firefighter LODDs will show a large percentage of deaths were the result of accidents. In PA even when running lights and sirens an ambulance is REQUIRED to come to a stop at all redlights and stopsigns. I dont know if you have many redlights along the way to the hospital but with an 80 mile trip to the hospital for a couple of stitches I would think that there is only a few redlights over that first half of your trip.
At 70 miles an hour your still looking at aprox 1 hr and 10 minutes to handle that transport with no stopping or slowing down. At 60 MPH the same trip works out to 1 hour and 20 minutes is ten minutes really worth it. We routinely take patients from local hospital to Pittsburgh for heart cath's that involve a one way trip of 54 miles and the majority of those transports are no lights or sirens for pt safety.
Why dont you ask your board for permission to do your own in house study. You and those that think like you do handle the transport with no lights while the rest of the department continue to do it their way. Determine a way to end the study either by date if you have alot of calls like this or after say 5 transports. Then compare trip times between the two styles of response. This way everyone has information from your departments trips in which to make their decision. When its all in black and white I bet their wont be 15 minutes difference in times. Hope this helped and keep us informed how it turned out.
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