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Why do we buy apparatus the way we do
I've been in the fire business since 1978. Was on 2 engine committees and getting ready to order a third and I still don't understand why the fire service does what we do. By that I mean ordering engines like each fire company is so much different then the other.
Trucks are starting to cost upwards of 1 Million, Engines half a million. Why, because everyone wants something different.
Our company has two of the best designed engines we ever had. One is a engine the other a squrt. We're relacing both so instead of saying give me this, you already have the plans we like the equipment and nothing has changed. But why not..because the people on THIS committee didn't design the engines and THEY can do it better. We were told by the Peirce dealer that it would cost $40G to take the boom off the squrt and redo the box and refrub the rest of the engine. But 200G to leave the boom on and refrub it. WHA.....HUH....Come on....Oh of course if you left the boom on there wouldn't be a need for a second engine.
But if I was a manufacturer I would offer very little options. One box for engines with choice of tank and pump size. Maybe seating choice. How much would something like this cost. A whole lot less then what we pay now. Let's say the basic engine with 750 tank and 1250 pump 6 man cab cost $200,000. Why because they can build more with the same parts and components for less. you save money by building and buying in bulk.
We need to change the way we do business. With the economy the way it is I'm sure our tax payers will start to look more closely at our spending and asking us to cut back. Of course will this happen, no because dealers what to make the sale, and fire departments are on the slowest to make radical changes.
Trucks are starting to cost upwards of 1 Million, Engines half a million. Why, because everyone wants something different.
Our company has two of the best designed engines we ever had. One is a engine the other a squrt. We're relacing both so instead of saying give me this, you already have the plans we like the equipment and nothing has changed. But why not..because the people on THIS committee didn't design the engines and THEY can do it better. We were told by the Peirce dealer that it would cost $40G to take the boom off the squrt and redo the box and refrub the rest of the engine. But 200G to leave the boom on and refrub it. WHA.....HUH....Come on....Oh of course if you left the boom on there wouldn't be a need for a second engine.
But if I was a manufacturer I would offer very little options. One box for engines with choice of tank and pump size. Maybe seating choice. How much would something like this cost. A whole lot less then what we pay now. Let's say the basic engine with 750 tank and 1250 pump 6 man cab cost $200,000. Why because they can build more with the same parts and components for less. you save money by building and buying in bulk.
We need to change the way we do business. With the economy the way it is I'm sure our tax payers will start to look more closely at our spending and asking us to cut back. Of course will this happen, no because dealers what to make the sale, and fire departments are on the slowest to make radical changes.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Bill Muehsam on
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If it's all one FD, then why not? If your talking about several FD's, then it's up to them to standardize thier purchases (picking one MFG to supply apparatus), if that's what they want to do. Not every Fire Apparatus MFG makes all that you listed above, so you will have to shop around. Like I said, not every district is the same, so every Engine or Truck Company isn't going to be spec'd out the same.
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Permalink Reply by Engineco913 on
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you will also find that when you go over to 1 manufacturer as an exclusive, you lose the ability to negotiate a better price. They know you want their truck, you run out of choices.
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Permalink Reply by Jenny Holderby on
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We have a new truck coming in soon. Should have already had it but. . . So we have just been through this "truck shopping" ordeal. It took over 3 yrs to get enough $$ to get a truck worth having. The first one we wanted was almost $500,000.00. The first obstacle is money, the second in choosing a truck was that half of us wanted a Heavy Rescue & the rest of us thought that particularly in our area where we don't have hydrants everywhere that any type of truck we have should carry @ least SOME water on it & have hand lines.
We need to realize that even though we are all different we all have the same basic needs, a vehicle with a pump & tank (for the most part) with room to carry some extra stuff that we need like SCBA & generators & hand tools blah blah blah. Fire truck mfgs, I don't want to leave anyone out but I am most familiar with E-One & Pierce particularly & now Sutphen, but MOST mfgs have packages already worked up for GSA - Government Spending Approved. NOW, with these packages you might not get everything the WAY YOU want it & might have to change some thinking but it could mean the difference in $420,000.00 & $300,000.00. I don't know about you but $120,000.00 is a LOT of money to where I come from. In 1985, I thought $120,000.00 was a lot for an engine. An engine comparable to that today is over $300,000.00. In our station we don't have the luxury of having 1 piece of equipment to do 1 job. We have a unit that is a Pumper/Tanker. It LOOKS like a tanker & holds 1800 gal of water, has a quick dump on the back & portable tanks & the other stuff a tanker has but it also has a cross lay & 1200 gmp pump. The truck we just ordered is going to be a Rescue/Pumper. Who says a truck that is technically an engine can't haul water if it needs too or haul rescue equipment? My FAVORITE vehicle is a untility truck we purchased last fall. It LOOKS like a plumbers truck with the knaphide box on the back with a walk through box, compartments outside all over the place & storage inside wasn't hard to put some fasteners hold things in place, it serves as our 1st Responder vehicle, hauls rescue equipment & haz mat equipment & works as Rehab unit not to mention all the little odds & ends of running we use that truck for.
I think the whole point is that we all need to figure out how to make things work for US so we get the BEST bang for the $$$ even if we have to turn lose of some tradition & some stubborn pride.
What are we calling BELLS & WHISTLES?? I don't consider reflective markings & lights on the vehicle as bells & whistles. Can you give me something specific? I haven't looked @ 1901 lately but I haven't found anything yet in any of them that resemble bells or whistles. They usually refer to functionality & safety not asthetics.
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Permalink Reply by Fuzzy Carr on
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There is a department here in town just like alot of other depatments having manpower probles. But there going to buy another engine comp. (with a 10 man cab & rescue body). There total manpower for the last year at calls has been 8 to 10 total. Is that to much truck or what?
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Doesn't sound right to me, but I don't know the details.
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Permalink Reply by Jeff Cole on
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NJ is currently under scrutiny for the way specs are written to support one specific manufacturer to meet the bid specs.
It has been suggested that fire departments should be able to take part in the state bid program which allows a much lower purchasing price due to bulk ordering and buying. Of course those who demand those huge ultra-custom, super-expensive apparatus (that may roll out a couple hundred times a year, if THAT with maybe three or four fireifghters) are already crying foul. Certianly I acknowledge the fact that certain geographical considerations dictate certain designs, as in pump and water tank size, and perhaps wheel base and weight restrictions.
But after spending some time at a major manufacturer's factory, and attending several conventions with dozens of apparatus displays, I have drawn the conclusion that many will sacrifice function for appearence. Along with that, fleet downsizing has created another monster. The multi-purpose apparatus in which we try to cram everything on one custom vehicle because we just can't depend on the turnout of enough members to bring the aerial, engine, and rescue trucks.
Personally, give me an urban-designed basic, simple engine anyday. Crosslay preconnects, rear hosebeds, and ladders are all mounted so high that it creates a hazard for anyone under 6', especially those wearing SCBA who have to climb onto a running board to shoulder the hose.
Taxpayers here ARE jumping on the report, and some dealers are running a little scared. I can't totaly blame them though. They are in the business for profit. Just because it is the fire service, the good 'ol boys, doesn't mean they are going to advise us on legit business. Many fire companies and departments know full-well what they are doing is skirting the process. So it isn't ignorence at all, it's defiance. I think it is about time some of these organizations be hekd accountable for their spending. Sadly though, the flip-side of all this may well mean having to settle for a less-than-reputable apparatus dealer, and low-quality equipment that just looks the same as the rest.
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I agree with you 100% on Departments needing a piece to fit there needs. But some do go overboard. Don't you think?
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Permalink Reply by Just Plain Craig Moyer on
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Can someone give me some hard reasons each fire department is different then the other.
Lets us my area as an example. We're in a suburban, hydranted area. Would an engine with front and rear intakes. 3 rear and side discharges of which 1 each would be a large diameter. Deck gun. A standard cabinet design. 1500 pump and 1000 gal tank. 10 man cab (which is really a 6-7 man cab in real life)
Why wouldn't an engine like this work anywhere. We have engines with 10 discharges. As anyone ever used 10 lines off one engine? The most we have ever used was 2. After that it comes off another engine or you get bigger lines going. I really respect peoples opinions but I hate to hear the term every department is different. My 3 bedroom is almost like everyone elses 3 bedroom. The school in our district is the same as the school in your district. The only different might be hydrants or the fact that it's in another district.
Non-standardization is killing the volunteer fire service...God I feel better now.
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The problems in NJ, will probably have effects throughout the country, and the industry, in regards to writing specs. It's nothing new!!!!
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Your engine sounds pretty much like my engine except that I've never even SEEN a truck with 10 discharges! Ours have them on both sides & the back. I like the fact that we carry portable tanks & throw them down & use the "quick dump" on the back of the truck to fill them. The tools we carry on the apparatus might be different. How many jet syphons do you carry? We carry different sizes of hard suction hoses & strainers for drafting out of rivers & streams & THANK GOD!! WE don't have to do that much anymore but it used to be very common. The new truck doesn't have those things. I want a 1000, 1200 or 1500 gal tank where someplace else might do with a 750 tank. All of our pumps are @ least 1000gpm these days. We can't handle a truck any longer than 33 ft. until we get a new fire station. The depts down the road from us have BIG APPARATUS that we have no place to house. There are places in our township that you really have to watch certian passes with rocks sticking out or a ridge with a sheer drop to one side or tiny little bridges that these vehicles wouldn't do US any good.
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How about tring to fit this in your Firehouse.
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Permalink Reply by Karl Campbell on
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Truck sounds nice Craig, I guess my problem being from a rural department I find dollars speaks loudly and even though our department does quite well with fundraisers within the community there are others that don't have that tax base for funds. I'm saying budget is why your vehicle would not work for me. Now if the Municipality were to provide this truck from our tax rate by all means give me your truck.
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