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Is it the gear, or lack of training ???
There has been some talk that the better gear we have now is hurting and killing FF by letting them go deeper and stay longer in the fire. There was an article in the last Fire/Rescue magazine i just recieved. It stated that it may be a lack of training. I have a tendacy to believe lack of training. We all know that things are made from differant materials than 10-20 yrs ago. It burns faster and hotter and gives off alot more deadlier gas. Things like this change the tactics that some have used years ago. I believe that we as FF need to stay up on our training as times change. Like the art of reading smoke. Knowing whats burning....I believe this may have more to do with the safety than the better equipment we have. What is all your take on this???
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Kevin Bacco on
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I think it is the culmination of many things. Not only is the PPE we wear giving us a false sense of security, the fires are burning hotter and the lack of training/experience. With most municipal or city departments responding to more EMS incidents and less 'working' fires then ever before it is only natural that the experience level for newer personnel just isn't there.
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Permalink Reply by Christopher Kurtz on
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As a volunteer, I can always use more training. My chiefs and officers have been proactive about training. I appreciate this. I don't know if you can ever know everything about this business. It should be noted that most deaths are due to overexertion. We must know ourselves and our own limitations and our gear and it's limitations.
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Amen brother!
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Permalink Reply by Ron Graner on
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Training is the real problem in the increase in burns and injuries to firefighters. Unfortunately all of the comments seem to be focused on firefighter training when the real solution begins with training and education equally across a much wider spectrum.
Preventing injury as we know is a key role of those in command at the scene and that is certainly incident training:
Does the department have and follow policies that demand firefighter safety be a key consideration in incident management?
Does the department consistently train to those policies?
Has the public been made aware that the department has policies that will permit a greater risk to save lives but will not risk the lives of firefighters to save property when the property owners and operators have failed to provide the basics of internal fire protection such as automatic sprinklers?
The real issues of evaluating firefighter safety go far beyond being an issue of firefighter training or equipment.
The questions regarding training go to how the fire chief and the community have addressed the problem on many levels:
Is the department still using just water on fire attack when as acknowledged over and over fires are burning hotter than ever before?
Has class A foam or another proven extinguishing agent been established as the departments initial fire attack tool to assure quick knock down and prevent further propagation of fire?
Has the department educated, marketed and sold the jurisdictions elected policy makers on the need for equipping and even retro fitting all fire attack units with the most modern extinguishing agents?
Has the fire chief spoken the language of the elected policy makers and shown the cost benefit of using more modern extinguishing agents to reduce loss of tax generating property to the tax roles?
Has the department leadership educated, marketed and sold the jurisdiction's elected policy makers on the need for mandating automatic sprinkler protection for every structure, current as well as new, in the jurisdiction?
Has the department leadership educated, marketed and sold the jurisdiction's elected policy makers on the need for providing incentives in the form of tax breaks and elimination of tap fees for installation of automatic sprinklers?
Has the department as a whole educated, marketed and sold the jurisdiction’s elected policy makers on the need for increased fire safety education across all aspects of the community?
Those are the issues that must be addressed to improve the current increasing firefighter injury problems.
Educate, Market and Sell for the needs of your department every day.
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Permalink Reply by Jenny Holderby on
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In 2007 there were 102 FF fatalities. (NIOSH report) We average about 100 a year but has been in the 80-90 range. Of those deaths, 40 were considered "stress related" and 38 of those were cardiac incidents.
53 were volunteer & 42 were career ( FFs remember there were 9 @ once in Charleston.)
The number of cardiac incidnets have gone down over the past several years as well because I think we pay more attention & require physicals & such. The folks having the cardiac deaths aren't aware that there is an issue in most cases. We relate chest pain to muscle discomfort & being tired & don't recognize the signs until it is too late. I'd like to find out how many "recover".
I have an entire theory about dehydration & cardiac incidents and minerals & heat but that is another issue.
If you subtract the cardiac deaths the "accidents" are down to 62 and 26 of those were accidents on the road way.
You can read the NIOSH report @ http://www.nfpa.org/assets/files/PDF/osfff.pdf
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Permalink Reply by Randy Leizear Jr. on
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I agree with walt on this one.
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Permalink Reply by FETC on
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LACK OF TRAINING!
I agree with Ron. The leadership should be making better decisons when running a fire with RISK verse GAIN.
This includes why I still see fire department's using fixed gallonage 125 gpm fog nozzles when I am hired to teach a class. Doesn't take long to see that the leadership in these cases, have not kept up on the newer demands needed to safely extinguish a fire with the newer fuels and BTU insult.
So back to the OP, I must everyone this: When we send firefighters to become certified at the FF1 or 2 level, how much fire, smoke and thermal insult recognition training do they really get quantitively? Pretty much NONE. The industry is not preparing firefighters for what they are EXPECTED to operate in when they come back "certified". Burn buildings, with wood, hay and pallets just do not provide realisitic heat because they will damage if you heat them up too much and protective tiles crack. Another concern is I feel newer fire instructors, (less than 5 years as a brother) who haven't been around long enough to understand the real-world insult do not understand themselves nor promote the limitations of the training session.
Example: I love the Flashover Simulator. Great training to show a CONTROLLED environment flashovers with great heat exposure. Problem is EXACTLY what Bull has described as hotter and deadlier gases in a real fire.... those two words have a direct correllation to at what temperatures and the conditions seen in a fire in a home, office or commercial structure today. Acrolein and Toluene has very low flashpoints as compared to Carbon Monoxide Flashovers or yesteryear. Now how low, dependant on the levels as low as 400F.
Now take the flashover training program and get a sense of how to identify pre-flashover conditions. Those conditions are NOT the same as a fire seen in the battlefield. How do you fix this, well you need to NOT be there at that time. Is the training good YES, Is the prop good YES, does the training need to stress these conditons are controlled, YES. If not, this is why I feel the training may let you down. Whether you do NO TRAINING or have sent firefighters to a FF-1 and 2. They are not training in realistic environments. Now I do not support the fact of training to get everyone hurt or burned either. But there needs to be a greater focus on thermal insult recognition training so a firefighter can identify temperatures with all of our gear on. Remember the discussion on whether to wear a hood or not? Major arguements and posts... The guys who did not support wearing a hood feel that you can not be in an environment that is ready to flash because your ears couldn't tolerate the pre-flashover conditions...
So we need to get our firefighters into their gear, all of their gear (hoods included) and get them hot, be able to call out the temperatures so they can get an idea of how hot it is with the gear ON. Many academies and training companies have the capability of portable Class A trailers with temperature sensors for heat montioring. When you can crawl into the kitchen oven and bake for a while to get comfortable in the heat, now that is REAL training. So I feel that the latest BASIC firefighter training programs are not preparing the newest firefighters to go to work safely. Why? because they were trained to wear all that GREAT gear with a smoke machine, drum with smoky hay, or even a few pallets, as compared to what they will see post certification training.
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Permalink Reply by Heather on
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Tunnel Vision. That is what I was going to bring up. We all have to admit that we all get it. Sometimes. Whether it is because the fire is calling, or there is someone trapped. It is the hardest thing we have to battle on the fire ground. Tunnel vision makes us forget where we are. IE: the fire is rolling over your head and you are on the ground shooting the pipe at the base of the fire. Our gear is wonderful, WHEN IT IS WORN! It does make us feel invincible. It makes us blind to the heat that is killing us. I dont agree that it is training, because accidents happen. Charleston was an accident. Command needs to fill duties. Safety Officers need to fill duties. Firemen, Pump Operators, Ventilation. We all have duties. We all have safety issues. You can train every single day, but nothing can 100% prepare you, because fire is unpredictable. Yeah you can call where its gonna go, or when it may flash. But do we truly know until it is happening? We all have to be more aware. Pay attention to our surroundings, and pay attention during training, that will save your butt!
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Permalink Reply by VaLeRiE cRaWfOrD on
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Amen
i have been trying to get my dept to work more on the Physical part of the training even with the one that can not work on a structure fire. i am going to try the CPAT one more and i am going to ask my Lt if we can do some Physical training.
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Permalink Reply by Spanner 122 on
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I guess it would still come down to lack of training. Better gear, and changes in environmental conditions should lead to more training. when everything around you is changing, you cannot continue to train the same way. It's can't solve a new problem with an old solution. Sure the gear allows you to push in farther, work harder and longer, but our ability to see changes in atmosphere and keep our exits in mind should also increase.
I don't think we can blame it all on changes. That new gear saved the lives of some of my colleagues when conditions changed rapidly and without warning.... I'm a fan of it.
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Permalink Reply by Paul Evans on
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It is not the gear at all, people are getting hurt and killed do to being complacent! Complacency Kills!!!! The gear is to further our safety but a good majority of the fire service now is unexperienced and i cant say it enough but train like it's the real thing, and as many times as it take's so it is second nature.
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Permalink Reply by Bob Shelly on
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News Flash!!! The training and the gear a BOTH a lot better than they were, what is missing, and one of the reasons we have FFs putting themselves in harms way is the abuse of the drug we all crave, and that brothers and sisters is Adreniline. You have to show people how powerful it can be, then teach them to control the rush, its like putting a scope on a rifle, you become a deadlier advasary to the fire. Bring them home safe. PUMPED, but safe.
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