Is it the gear, or lack of training ???

There has been some talk that the better gear we have now is hurting and killing FF by letting them go deeper and stay longer in the fire. There was an article in the last Fire/Rescue magazine i just recieved. It stated that it may be a lack of training. I have a tendacy to believe lack of training. We all know that things are made from differant materials than 10-20 yrs ago. It burns faster and hotter and gives off alot more deadlier gas. Things like this change the tactics that some have used years ago. I believe that we as FF need to stay up on our training as times change. Like the art of reading smoke. Knowing whats burning....I believe this may have more to do with the safety than the better equipment we have. What is all your take on this???

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Permalink Reply by Spanner 122 on October 11, 2008 at 2:05pm

That is not a fair statement. What you're saying is all injuries and deaths are due to adrenalin junkies? i can promise you this is not the case. Training may be better, in some areas, but seriously lacking in others. Some don't train enough on shift, some paid on call departments have people not even showing up for training. Some times shit just hits the fan.

I would hesitate to say adrenalin is what kills people, it is more likely complacency (disclaimer - not in all cases).

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Permalink Reply by PFC Harmon on October 11, 2008 at 2:12pm

I would say alot is lack of experiance. Some might be tunnel vision. Some might be "adrenaline junkies". I will say the gear has gotten alot better in the past few years but with experiance you know when is to far in or when you shouldnt go in at all. I read a post on here about a chief that was 21 I think. You have people taking a couple classes on firefighting and they believe they have learned everything they can. Some of this stuff you cant learn in any school.

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Permalink Reply by Jenny Holderby on October 11, 2008 at 5:45pm

Adrenalin is a powerful substance. Adrenalin is probably what causes a lot of the cardiac incidents as well. If you don't work the adrenalin off, have a cool down period before you stop being active, it can cause BIG problems & cause muscles to freeze up.
Adrenalin is a factor in Freelancing which is a another big issue. Training IS a huge factor but I really really believe that LEADERSHIP is the biggest reason fire fighters get hurt & killed and that fits hand in hand with the training part of it.

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Permalink Reply by Jenny Holderby on October 11, 2008 at 6:17pm

Jeff, I enjoyed reading this & I think you are right. I thought that the person writing this must really know what he's talking about & been in the fire service for a long time. :) So I went back & looked @ your profile. hehehehe - I was right. What we are not considering a big part of this discussion is that most of the injuries aren't due to burns @ all. Even the LODDs are attributed to events where PPE wasn't a factor, lack of it or how well it protected us from heat or fire. The fire, heat or smoke will get you if you are down & they can't get you out like Ladder 49. There are a lot of factors in life safety but PPE or training alone won't save us all.

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Permalink Reply by Ed on October 12, 2008 at 6:14pm

It could be a combination of the two, or it could be a simple lack of common sense. I mean, look at it like this, I know that before I go into a fire, Its gonna be H-O-T.. Its as hot today as it was 10 years ago when I started. Its up to me to know my physical, mental, and equipment limits. If I choose to ignore those things (like a lot of us firefighters tend to do), then I take the chance of hurting myself. I'm just not sure we could sit here and blame it on the gear, when in all actuallity, all the manufacturers are doing is covering our butts when we exceed our own limits.

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Permalink Reply by FETC on October 12, 2008 at 9:22pm

Jenny,

It is funny use state that adrenalin is probably what causes a lot of cardiac incidents as well. - You see, when we are challenged with a stressor the body's response with a FIGHT or FLIGHT response is some adrenaline. But let me better explain the response and what happens to healthy firefighters. We go where others will not and in the process of this, we expose our internal organs to outside heat stressors, to include greater thermal protection from the gear but also the additional heat buildup (inside-out) that causes increased core temperatures which do have a direct correlation to the newer gear. These conditions that all of us are faced with are "Uncomparable" to any other occupation. First, most of us live a busy and fast moving life, and we are under allot of stress. Chronic Stress is very bad for us. Our liver and heart are under stressors that previous generations were not exposed to. Chronic stress is like living on the FIGHT or FLIGHT response all day / every day. When this occurs it causes our liver to run on overload and dump stored glucose when it is really not needed. Now add in our poor diet that is caused by our very busy schedules, to include high fats, greases, sugars, soda, coffee and alcohol. We are literally walking around overfed and undernourished. These foods cause plaque build up in our arteries. So we are busy, we work two/three jobs and eat junk food like fast food, basted in high fat grease.... I think we all understand why these are bad for us right? So getting back to being an Industrial Athlete, you are sleeping and the pager goes off for a fire alarm, probably at a resting heart rate of 50-60 (lower if you are a runner)... but lets say 50. You are startled awake and hear the report. Your heart rate spikes to around 100 or so from a spike in energy and adrenaline. You get up and your body dumps a bunch of stored glucose under the fight or flight response from your liver. This gives us energy to fight the battle. You respond to the station, jump into the truck and go down the road and the Chief calls dispatch and says cancel the engine we are under control, it is a false alarm. Boom, no fight but our body is ready for one! You respond back to the station/home and ultimately back to sleep either to try and grab some zzz's. What does your body do with all the extra fat and glucose? Well it is put onto our spare tire around our waist for storage. Now lets do that 5 or 10 times a night and you can see how our occupation is slowly killing us.... call by call. OK now same scenario but your tone this time is for a building fire with reports of kids trapped on the second floor. HR 50... Boom and instantly spikes to 120+ and this time, as you quickly dress it feels as though your heart is coming out of your chest! BOOM, BOOOM, BOOM. Holy Sh*t I think I can literally feel my heart pulsing out of my chest. (Been there, done that) and by the time you get to your car, it is gone? Vanished? Where did it go? OK, brain says fight or flight, dumps glucose, and spiked your heart rate for the fight. When your heart responds that fast your blood vessels are still in a homeostasis state, meaning the apporpriate size for your heart rate at 50 and keeping your BP in a normal range. When it doubles its rate, the vessels do not respond as fast and it creates back pressure. hence your heart feels like it is jumping out of your chest for a few seconds. This is bad. With this back pressure, your brain then demands your blood vessels quickly VASODIALATE, (expand) when this occurs with back pressure, remember all that plaque buildup from Mickie D's or KFC? Well it is flushed from the interior walls and it is sent down the pipes. These are looking for a pipe that is smaller in diameter than the flake and it loves to clog up pipes. You can see cardiac emergencies from the chain of events. This is one type of emergency. Internal core temps can be increased by the gear and poor FF rehabilitation and rehydration.

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Permalink Reply by Jenny Holderby on October 13, 2008 at 11:36am

Why would you say that it is funny I made that statement? Adrenaline is only 1 factor but it is a pretty big one. I've been a firefighter for a long time & I try to understand what happens to my own body as well as learning what advice to give our guys as the Health & Safety Officer. LIKE - HYDRATION, Hydration, hydration!!
Some of this is a whole different topic but I have done research on the effects of dehydration not to mention having suffered them myself. We don't REALIZE we are dehydrating and losing basic minerals that our body needs to function. We aren't thirsty so we don't realize that certian parts of our body (muscles for instance) are starving for fluids. Once in a hazmat class in level B gear after 15 mins I litterally poured water out of my boots.
Working in full PPE, we sweat. The vapor barrier that won't allow the bad stuff to get to us also doesn't allow for the body's natural way of cooling itself with perspiration & evaporation.
It keeps the heat IN raising the body's core temp. When you are inside a working fire, or close to one even, that temperature raises your temp as well so we are essentially cooking or steaming our own bodies. REHAB is important and particularly VFDs don't realize HOW important. Cooling off & rehydration are essential. The thing of it is that if we drink enough water, not sweet drinks or caffine and we eat, i'm not going to say a "proper diet" we don't but there are certian foods we need to eat particularly after calls that will help us recoup some of the minerals we lost that our body can't reproduce quickly on its own but needs to function like sodium and potassium. (Too much or too litte of either can cause BIG problems, even cardiac events) Or even a mineral supplement in some cases. But like i said this is a different topic than if it is the gear or the training.

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Permalink Reply by Leslie Pederson on October 27, 2008 at 8:09pm

Depends on the gear! We have the exact opposite on my department and several neighboring departments, that went into an order together last year. We bought gear, the black Janesville. This gear is meant to do the exact opposite, it tells you when you are in too hot. Trust me, I have learned from experience. They told us the truth on that one. Also, the gear turns red when it has been compromised by too much heat, and you definitely feel it!
I absolutely agree that we need to stay current on our training, in fact reading smoke is now a component in our recruit academy fire behavior class. It should be right from the start, along with staying current with building construction techniques.
Also, we need to be more cognicent of how far we have gone into a building. The Rules of Air Management apply, along with the 5 feet rule. This is the stuff that has to be drilled into our people from the start.

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Permalink Reply by FETC on October 27, 2008 at 8:30pm

Jenny,

I didn't state the word "funny" as a put down. It was funny that you mentioned it and I studied the body's response to the fight or flight mechanism which needs adrenaline. Thats what I mean't by funny :)

Agree with everything you stated as well - dehydration is another huge factor.

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Permalink Reply by Scott Corrigan on October 30, 2008 at 1:41pm

Looking for input:
-Flashover Trainer/Trailer: Is this the device that you load a barrel in the front, OSB on the walls and ceiling in a platform that is elevated above the "viewing area". In this arena, the team of students is brought in from the rear and one of them is assigned to hold a "chain" (also known as ventilation). If this is the same device/forum I want to hear your thoughts. My understanding is that if you are in a room or even adjacent room and actual flashover occurs, some short burts of water from the fog nozzle will not be able to stop the event (not a bash on foggies). I was really surprised at the lack of recognition of the vertical hatch that was always opened during the demonstration. I assumed that everyone else recognized that this was a coordinated ventilation demonstration and that without that vertical hatch, the demonstration would have yielded different results. It was also taught to check temps by a short spray of water on the wall to see if it evaporates. He said watch, spray, sizzle, see? I guess that would work if you were interior attack on a semi trailer fire. I have seen more and more "flashover" training/ drill tower effects etc. They are all being labeled as flashover, when more appropriately they should be labeled "rollover". This could actually be teaching people that you can survive/tolerate the flashover event. It is not a single room event, so the 5 foot rule that you can turn around and crawl out does not seem to be accurate.

It seems that there is a lack of recognition that we enter an evnironment with smoke (fuel). We fail to recognize changes in conditions (noted from inside or outside). We fail to reduce the BTU's and remove the hazardous atmosphere with an appropriate ventilation task based on our hazard profile (meaning each one has its place: PPV, horizontal and vertical, picking just one is not the answer. You can be prepared for vertical each time and be changed to PPV post arrival after confirming that it is an appropriate task, but assuming PPV is plan A and then having to call an audible to switch to vertical will lead to a potential "post incident coaching session"). The profile of: Remove the problem from the people or the people from the problem. Some have translated that to mean simple knock down, as opposed to not knock down, ventilation and maintain awareness of the surroundings while others remove the people. You will never see a SWAT officer "wing" a bad guy and then toss down his gun to make the hostage grab. Just a thought.

Certified vs. Qualified: This is something that I have been hearing. The focus in on certification versus qualifications. I will give my personal example: I attended an Incident Safety Officer course. Instructor A taught the class as it was outlined, met the class objectives, issued certificates and I was certified. I was given the knowledge but no correlation on how to apply it. I attended another Incident Safety Officer course. Instructor B taught the class, but began with advising us of the position and how it would apply. He encouraged us to interract with him and ask questions. He demanded that we experience and receive depth of knowledge on this topic. He told us that whatever we failed to learn today could lead to a LODD in our department that will affect an entire generation. He showed us videos and called on us by name until our names were crossed off his list. We were put in an uncomfortable position, but we learned how to apply the knowlege we were receiving to the actual events that we may be facing. We discussed in depth: Building Profiling, Rescue Profiling, Ventilation Profiling. Otherwise how could we recognize something unsafe. Instructor B did not teach us to look for "chinstraps" etc. Not bashing on Instructor A but if he did not have the depth of knowlege how can he deliver it to us. The same goes across the boards with instructors. Just a thought.

Regarding PPE: I love the new stuff. It is not the potato sack that caused the "crotch hike" before vertical movement. I agree it can place our brains in a capsule. SO Officers be eyes up for safety not eyes down on a task. Instructors, if you are put in a position to teach, please correlate it. I.E. In real life you would not have gotten this close to the fire, entered the room and sprayed directly above your head......I think that will help some.

Training: Tell them that it is okay to speak, otherwise how do all the different learning styles learn. Don't feel challenged by them. The new age generation is different. They have something others never had. Instant access to information to either prove you right or prove you wrong. If you have fostered an enviroment of learning they may come back to you with this information (a hopeful positive environment). If you have forstered an environment of "I am going to speak and you are going to listen", they will probably write you off and seek someone else to listen to (linear teaching, do this because we have always done it that way). SO stay up on your topics, google your topics and see what you are facing on the big WWW.

I actually thought (like my blackberry IM) I would be limited by text count, guess not. I look forward to your thoughts and input.

Live to Learn. Learn to Live.

Scott
"So you didn't train today, What is another nail in the old coffin......"