Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Spanner 122 on January 8, 2008 at 9:06am

I understand your point about staffing, but when it comes to the Git 'er done mentallity, I'm failing to understand. I'm not really sure how to word my response, but I'll give it a try! haha!
First with staffing, yes it can be tougher and more work for those involved to get the job done if there are major staffing issues. Is there not always a chance to call in mutual aid? Even in rural areas when it could take up to 20 minutes for help to arrive, it's only 20 minutes of work. Does ego play a role here in not calling in the mutual aid when it's a confirmed working fire. There is nothing wrong with taking a break, rehabbing, getting hydrated (a HUGE issue with heart attacks, blood thickens, heart works harder) and then getting back to it. Having mutual aid in, or in the case of a large department, calling in a second alarm or third if needed depending on the size and severity of the incident will definitely help to keep people safe and able to work longer.
I guess that was the first and second points.
Third point - the mindset. I don't think this mindset should ever change. We have our roles, we have our jobs and we should stick to them. Thinking we can back down may change the way the job is done, the way the mutual aid is called in. if you know it's coming, you can hit it hard, get 'er done, as you say. This is never a thoguht on my mind when I respond. I do the tasks that are needed to be done and I stop when I'm told to stop. I've seen a couple of guys buckled over getting air, but we can always be assured there is someone else to do the work. I am lucky enough to be from a large department and we can have crews work in shifts in the heat or cold or large incidents and we do "tag out" when needed.
Fourth point - you are 100% correct with this one. Our PPE has gotten so good and can protect us so well from the elements that we do tend to go in farther and seemingly risk more because we can't feel the heat. The Capt in my last station will keep a patch open between his glove and sleeve until he no longer can to accurately monitor the heat. We saw five of our firefighters trapped last year due to sudden changes in heat. It was likely 300 degrees or more when all of a sudden it changed to over 600 degrees. They had to escape out a third story window, suffering serious burns and of course multiple serious injuries. By the time it gets that hot, it's already too late and drastic measures must be taken. Scary stuff. What are the answers here? Our pass alarms are supposed to go off under extreme heat, but if you're on the third floor, lost in the smoke, isn't it already too late? Our new gear is lighter and easier to wear (almost 20 lbs lighter, I can't wait until mine arrives.. lol) which makes us lighter and improves mobility. it's a double edged swordm, we're protected in extreme heat, but we're also protected against feeling the extreme heat.

So, what are the solutions. We have both outlined the problems.

As for heart attacks, I feel that staying in shape is the best defense. Saying that being in shape isn't always the answer is almost allowing some to go ahead and relax. Complacency is the biggest killer all around. Fitness levels need to be kept up, it's not just about aesthetics, it's about living. Staying hydrated is incredibly important. As we get older, it becomes more and more important. As we dehydrate, the blood thickens and the heart has to work harder. if you heart is already taxed due to poor health, high blood pressure, etc, etc, not taking a break to hydrate is only going to compound the issue.

I like your post, I hope it's going to open up a lot of discussion. Although I fear there are some on here who feel safety is second place to fun and heroism. Looking forward to seeing some responses.

PS - We have changed from LIPS to SLIP
Life
Incident
Property
Safety
has been changed to Safety first... if we aren't safe, who or what are we going to save??

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Permalink Reply by Jim Cooper on January 8, 2008 at 10:43am

Thank you for your response. I think we are both on the same page so to speak. As far as the third point, I in no way meant that we should step back and not be agresive on atack etc. I did mean that if you have six people, you need to be weighing your resources and base your strategies accordingly. Hit a fire from the outside through a window if no rescue is needed knock the fire down then make entry for primary and secondary searches, and extinguishment etc. As far as mutual aid, yes it is always available but not always accepted and yes I believe that it is egos that contribute to this. Also, yes exercise is the number one way to mitigate this problem along with a healthy life style and in no way do I suggest being laid back in this area. Exercise must remain the main focus but agencies that are under stafed must look at and address these other issues. Again thank you for your response and input and as far as what to do about it I have done some work on it and have some ideas I will share later. I also hope this opens up lots of discussion as heart attacks are a major topic in the fire service.

PS- I like the LIPS I hadn't formed those four items into that before.

And yes by far safety is and always should be first.

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Permalink Reply by Jeff Betz on January 8, 2008 at 9:57pm

Good discussion guys. I work in a very low first alarm environment, typically can expect between 4 & 10 on the first alarm, lots of variables involved. In a nutshell, in my area I feel you are correct for items 1,2,3, and a little off with item 4. I will explain:
1 We show up regularly with too few bodies, and are expected to do the work of a more ample response
2 We are full time surrounded by paid-on-call, which slows their response; couple that with a less than stellar political environment (not between the fire departments). This I feel stifles any auto aid agreements, instead tossing it on the IC's shoulders. Gee, we just need one more thing to worry about...thanks.
3 We are well trained and get to work when we arrive, to the point where we are usually our own worst enemy. We never prove our point about staffing because we find a way to "get it done" with what we have.
4 (not a big weakness for us) Our department focuses quite a bit on safety and survival items, giving our limited crews as many skills as possible from officer to lowest FF, the ability to make good go/no go decisions. I truly think the only reason we don't "get caught" in bad situations is due to good decisions in this regard, thus limiting the "equipment" getting us in trouble.

Just my little ol' opinion, what do you think?

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Permalink Reply by Jim Cooper on January 9, 2008 at 10:44am

I like your response, our agency is a combination district we have three paid staff including myself and 27 volunteers on paper. However during the day we may get only that six or eight member response. We had one structure fire where my chief did the big no no and donned a pack and did not pass command off to anyone else, as there was only six members for the firefight. This should not have happend an IAP should have been formed to reflect the low staffing numbers for the incident and he should not have turned down my request for mutual aid companies.

I got to say this also, I am uterlly concerned that this post has only had two responses being that this heart attack related topic is the number one killer in the fire service. Yet topics like lets see your response rigs gets numerous responses with pictures of privately operated "urban assualt vehicles" maybe to some degree that is why vehicle crashes are the second leading cause of firefighter death. Oh well that it just my opinion though right? Just some more food for thought. Thank you for your response Jeff, to a very serious fire service problem again in my lonely opinion.

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Permalink Reply by Art "ChiefReason" Goodrich on January 9, 2008 at 11:04am

Exposure to hydrogen cyanide could be causing heart attacks that are being attributed to something else.
This gas rears its ugly head during the salvage/overhaul phase when many FFs come out of their SCBA.
Check it out.

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Permalink Reply by Jeff Betz on January 9, 2008 at 11:48am

You know, this whole Hydrogen Cyanide thing is new to me (or us collectively maybe), but surely needs attention. One caveat to going too far with blaming it (HCI), is that there are quite a few of these LODD heart attacks from simple medical responses, MVA's, smells & bells etc. Then we can throw in the fire scene related heart incidents on top of these others. I guess this leads me to needing more information concerning how many really have much to do with the Hydrogen Cyanide. I don't intend to minimize it, because I have seen several times in my years where we took off the SCBA's entirely too early. Just something to think about.

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Permalink Reply by Jim Cooper on January 9, 2008 at 3:50pm

Yes I never have been real strong in "grammer" which is actually spelled grammar. Thanks for your response though Art although I am concerned about your lack of focus towards the big issue which was the topic of this post.

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Permalink Reply by Captain 46 on January 9, 2008 at 4:56pm

Staffing issues? HA, what day is it and what time of day! Sometimes I'm afraid I'll have a heart attack just worrying if I'll have a driver today for my first due if all of our Fire Officers are out of town which means I'll likely go to the scene to mitigate, establish command. Command of who you ask? Pre incident planning brings in our mutual aid companies weekdays during "working hours" when like everyone else, we are shorter staffed to anything smoke and above, alarms at schools. One call on the radio from me or one of our Chiefs (one of them is almost always responding) and the pre-planned box is upgraded. The old days are over and you have to do what is right. I remember too well when you pulled your own couple of engines, the squrt and your aerial truck and put out your own fire. Calling mutual aid was for some huge commercials or tankers in more rural areas. Not so anymore. That goes for career or volunteer where I'm from. Nobody should be putting out structure fires anymore with just an officer, driver and two firefighters. That's almost always our response during the weekday and the truth is we can make alot of headway by the time mutual aid gets there, and they are pretty quick. Size up, flaking and charging handlines, SCBA on and ready - if judged appropriate myself and two FF will start the interior attack. Chiefs from mutual aid companies will take command, accountability etc if we don't have any Chiefs on scene. Alot more work when there is only four firefighters instead of 8, 12.......oh yeah. That's why we make sure more are on their way as soon as we know it might be needed.

Heart attacks the leading killer? Is it because we are firefighters - heart attacks are the leading killer nationwide of people. Anyone ever seen statistics about the #1 killer of say architects, computer geeks? I say that only half "heartedly". Our hearts have to be working at 110% as soon as the alarm goes off and the adrenaline starts flowing. Physically? Being a firefighter is like weightlifting with every bone and muscle in your body and the heart is the muscle at the center of all of it. More work at the scene, more stress, pushing it to the "max" each time to GitRDone! You can rest your arms and legs in a fire if you have to, but your heart gotta keep up with you! I have to believe healthier hearts and stronger heart muscles to start with has to give you a better chance in the long run.

Mindset? Yeah, not every structure should be an interior attack initially and better judgements with more knowledge is the key. Sometimes though the "new" safety initiatives seem to advocate just hanging around outside until you run out of water or fuel. Not sure I agree with that either, we are firefighters after all!

Better bunker gear getting us trouble? I'm lucky enough to say last year I got a set and the truth is, when it comes to when you should get out, I'm not finding a difference. When your knees are telling you it's heating up and the air in your mask says it's time - it's time! The less senior guys say that's experience talking and if it is, then I make sure to share it.

Hydrogen cyanide poisoning during overhaul? OK, guilty but I've probably sucked up as many fumes from my BBQ when my steaks catch fire, and think of it this way.......if you don't wear your pack during overhaul you are giving your heart a chance to carry a little less of a load for that time. Sorry somewhat cynical about the new age of hydrogen cyanide poisoning sending what we used to call exhausted FF's with smoke inhalation to the hospital. In all fairness, we probably do take our packs off too soon and I'm open to at least learning more about it.

Sorry, guess I had a few thoughts on the matters! Good post to bring up.....looking forward to reading more....

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Permalink Reply by Art "ChiefReason" Goodrich on January 10, 2008 at 10:15pm

Jim:
My apologies. I didn’t know that you wanted my long-winded version.
Well, here it is!
First, the issue of under staffing. The short answer is that it SHOULDN’T be a factor. If there is low member turnout for calls, if your department’s active roster has dipped into single digits and funding is non-existent, then this department that I have just described needs to combine with someone else or shut its doors.
If what is remaining in this hypothetical department are 60 – 70 year old firefighters and they are doing all of the physically demanding jobs and they aren’t having an annual physical, aren’t taking medications to control their hypertension, are still smoking a pack a day, likes meat smothered in gravy, watches TV instead of their weight and occasionally lifts a grandchild, then, yes; under staffing is contributing to heart attacks.
Why is it that we say that we won’t “engage the enemy”-fire-until it is safe to do so and still, we do it even though we don’t have proper manpower?
I mean, theoretically, you have one guy-the chief-respond. So, he gets the truck, gets to the fire, pulls a hose, engages the pump, assumes his position as incident commander and mutters to himself as the house burns down. And the on-lookers chortle “well, chief, you did the best you could”!
That’s a pretty disturbing picture, isn’t it?
When you talk about under staffing, you have to remember what happened in Keokuk, IA on December 22, 1999; a classic case of staffing issues. To be honest, I think that the three (3) firefighters who died that day would have gladly taken a heart attack over the flashover that killed them. Of course, we all wish that no one would have died that day.
You can’t talk about heart attacks killing firefighters without talking about physical fitness/life-style issues. Is under staffing contributory? Possibly, but what about the notion that firefighters are carrying extra pounds BEFORE they suit up and are then carrying even more weight. Then, we put a mask on them that a pulmonary test says that they shouldn’t even be wearing in the first place!
So, someone who is 60 – 100 pounds overweight is putting on yet another 60 pounds and effectively breathing through a “straw” and we have to wonder why they drop dead?
What about the departments taking anybody and everybody? No pre-physicals, no medical histories, no problem! Let’s get them fitted for gear!
Is under staffing contributing or is it the existing “culture”?
I agree whole-heartedly with your head count of ten (10) to start initial fire ops at a scene.
If I get there and we have, say, eight (8), then unless rescue is needed, we will remain outside, get hose laid, ladders up, vents opened, exposures protected and by that time, additional mutual aid manpower. It’s when we get there and stand around with our thumbs protruding from out butts that really off-pisses our public!
Design of turnout gear is a factor, but that’s what the fire service DEMANDED! It only stands to reason that gear that is designed to keep heat out is also going to keep heat in. The University of Illinois, in conjunction with the Illinois Fire Service Institute has done countless measures of a firefighters’ core temperature and found temperatures at 103 plus degrees. At those temperatures, you definitely aren’t thinking straight. So, you do things that you shouldn’t, like leave a hose line and wander off. That kills firefighters, too!
Your “Git R Done” theory? Loosely translated, that means “whatever it takes”. Unfortunately, it’s not “whatever it takes” to get the job done safely. What it really means is that we didn’t do enough to protect the firefighters from themselves, which leads me to my final thought: LEADERSHIP!
We can take solace in the idea that some firefighters won’t take care of themselves and may die before, during or after a stressful fire call, but consider this:
We need to lead them to a healthier life-style.
We need to lead them to making better choices/better decisions.
We need to lead by calling for mutual aid sooner, maybe make it automatic.
We need to lead our fire districts to consolidation if poor member turnout is compromising their safety.
We need to lead out front, where there is more clarity of vision.
We need to know when to say “no” as leaders.
We DON’T NEED to lead any more funerals!
Thanks for your thought-provoking discussion topic.
I hope that we’re still friends. (wink)
Art

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Permalink Reply by Jeff Betz on January 10, 2008 at 10:56pm

Art, good stuff, BUT...I have a couple of thoughts.
I agree with the picture painted about manpower and staffing, but here is my real-world angle.
We are career, so we have written tests, CPAT test to pass, interviews, then hire good people. So far, so good. Then we have ongoing physicals as outlined in NFPA, including pulmonary function, EKG's; you get the idea.
A weakness here - working out is not mandatory. However, all except about 4 of 18 full-time guys DO keep in shape. Our scariest weakness? This is where you and I come back together in agreement:
Leadership and community planning.
Our first alarm is 4-6 full time guys and maybe 3 or 4 POC when toned with us, that's all we get initially. So, we protect a city that thinks we will be able to put out a fire at any time with between 4-10 people. Did I mention we have 25k population and about 40k daily population, with 2 residential colleges, 3 7-story or more high rises, a hospital, a historic downtown area, among many other high-hazards?
Why no automatic aid you say? Because our local politicians can't get along and the fire departments "tip toe" the issue because the Chief's of of the concerned departments know they will get a lot of crap about agreeing to "auto aid to those buttheads", they can do it themselves.
So, here we are, working too damn short and too damn hard. Can you tell I am frustrated?

I am not minimizing what you have said, because I agree with you. However, there are some things that are more difficult to fix than it seems on paper. A great fix would be at the county level, where these things could be mandated for all departments to operate with a certain basic response, eliminating local BS.

Wait, somebody wake me up...if the county gets involved, we are back to dealing with politicians...WTF?

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Permalink Reply by Mary Ellen Shea on January 10, 2008 at 11:40pm

Something that I find disturbing and that perhaps needs some response....I find that not only are you dealing with an aging fire service, you're also dealing with outdated mindsets to go along with the age issue.

Self-admittedly I'm somewhat of a fitness nut...but I'm not a fanatic. I try to eat whole foods when I can (meaning not processed/out of a box) and I definitely try and keep my eating habits healthy....but half the reason I hit the gym and run four times a week is so that I can eat what I want when I want, as long as I don't overdose on cheese. :)

What worries me is what I call "The Donut Cult". I work with a LOT of firefighters, and most of them are volunteer. I travel across the state and bring safety-conscious programs to the fire and EMS service....yet every time we sit there for three hours and talk about safety and how to make sure that everyone goes home...come break time during the seminar...inevitably I see the same thing, time after time.....
Donuts, pizza, hot dogs, cookies, fried foods, sub platters dripping w/ high fat condiments...and I also see a badly out of shape constituency. Add to that the alcohol consumption and smoking, and you have a recipe for firematic suicide.

I think it's time to step up the game and start reeducating firefighters that training and safety education doesn't just apply to interior attack.....it applies to personal health and fitness too.

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Permalink Reply by Art "ChiefReason" Goodrich on January 11, 2008 at 9:19am

Jeff:
Your demographics almost mirror a career department 15 miles from me. The chief is a very good friend of mine and I am sure he would love to have you pick his brain.
If your interested, I can get you into contact with him. If not, I am sure Chip, Tommie, Brad or Whitty would be glad to talk to you. I would hook you up with Salzy, but he "retired" late last year.
Let me know.
But I understand and appreciate your frustrations.

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