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Peanut Butter & Jelly Sandwiches (Under Staffing & Heart Attacks)
I believe that in some cases regarding fire service heart attacks that under staffing is a largely contributing factor. Now that is not to say that lack of physical fitness and unknown preexisting heart conditions are not. In my opinion Under staffing could be playing a major role in the contributing factors.
The following points are reasons for this, again in my opinion.
1. Less firefighters doing more of the work
2. Lack of utilizing mutual aid when under staffed
3. Mindset to focus on rescue & extinguishment first regardless of staffing
4. Advances in equipment
Let me explain these points. First in regards to firefighter under staffing, with a proper incident management personnel count of 10 or more at a minimum being foremost. Ten personnel maybe the agency in some districts or departments as most of could probably agree. So immediately this puts us behind the eight ball so to speak in available personnel for the incident. Ok, mutual aid you say, yes this is an option. And I say option because I have witnessed incident commanders opting out of or standing down a mutual aid response which leads me to point two. This I believe in some cases is due to pride and the "Get R Done" attitude or mentality. And then there is excersise which would mitigate heart attacks right? Well I don't believe that is always the case. Even the most fit individual will get tired and their body and its systems will only compensate for over exertion for so long before overload sets in. We go in deeper, pack more gear in, some times weighing as much or more than the old steel cylinders and yesteryear equipment when combined. We need to use our mutual aid options for additional staffing and set aside the "Get R Done" attitude or mentality when under staffed. Using mutual aid is not a sign of weakness or fear dang it, if anything using it is a very responsible and mindful way to keep your personnel safer.
Point three, in cases where the decision has been made to "Get R Done" with our minimal or less staffing, tunnel vision may be attributed. I believe the tendency is to focus on the bread. What the hell is he talking about you say? Well, rescue and extinguisment, which we all know has to happen its our job and "Lets Get R Done" right? Wrong, it is our job and reason for being but what about the peanut butter and jelly? We have to consider and mitigate the things in the middle of the bread. Oh yeah, RECEO or RECEO VS. But neither of these mention, address or remind us of staffing. And this is what I meant when I said the bit about tunnel vision. Don't get me wrong, Lloyd Layman's RECEO VS was and is great and I use it; however in his day we didn't go deeper, and pack more in thus weighing more. I don't believe there was as much focus on staffing then so there was no need to make a provision for it. We have got to think about staffing, starting from the time of response and account and make adjustments for it.
And finally point four, which I think I have already hammered that nail. Advances in equipment allow us to go deeper, and pack more in thus making us in some cases as heavy as the old equipment. We work harder and are subjected to more strain than before in some cases I believe.
All thoughts, opinions, ideas or suggestions on this topic are welcome and please share.
Jim Cooper
Captain / Training Officer
NORFPD, Oregon
The following points are reasons for this, again in my opinion.
1. Less firefighters doing more of the work
2. Lack of utilizing mutual aid when under staffed
3. Mindset to focus on rescue & extinguishment first regardless of staffing
4. Advances in equipment
Let me explain these points. First in regards to firefighter under staffing, with a proper incident management personnel count of 10 or more at a minimum being foremost. Ten personnel maybe the agency in some districts or departments as most of could probably agree. So immediately this puts us behind the eight ball so to speak in available personnel for the incident. Ok, mutual aid you say, yes this is an option. And I say option because I have witnessed incident commanders opting out of or standing down a mutual aid response which leads me to point two. This I believe in some cases is due to pride and the "Get R Done" attitude or mentality. And then there is excersise which would mitigate heart attacks right? Well I don't believe that is always the case. Even the most fit individual will get tired and their body and its systems will only compensate for over exertion for so long before overload sets in. We go in deeper, pack more gear in, some times weighing as much or more than the old steel cylinders and yesteryear equipment when combined. We need to use our mutual aid options for additional staffing and set aside the "Get R Done" attitude or mentality when under staffed. Using mutual aid is not a sign of weakness or fear dang it, if anything using it is a very responsible and mindful way to keep your personnel safer.
Point three, in cases where the decision has been made to "Get R Done" with our minimal or less staffing, tunnel vision may be attributed. I believe the tendency is to focus on the bread. What the hell is he talking about you say? Well, rescue and extinguisment, which we all know has to happen its our job and "Lets Get R Done" right? Wrong, it is our job and reason for being but what about the peanut butter and jelly? We have to consider and mitigate the things in the middle of the bread. Oh yeah, RECEO or RECEO VS. But neither of these mention, address or remind us of staffing. And this is what I meant when I said the bit about tunnel vision. Don't get me wrong, Lloyd Layman's RECEO VS was and is great and I use it; however in his day we didn't go deeper, and pack more in thus weighing more. I don't believe there was as much focus on staffing then so there was no need to make a provision for it. We have got to think about staffing, starting from the time of response and account and make adjustments for it.
And finally point four, which I think I have already hammered that nail. Advances in equipment allow us to go deeper, and pack more in thus making us in some cases as heavy as the old equipment. We work harder and are subjected to more strain than before in some cases I believe.
All thoughts, opinions, ideas or suggestions on this topic are welcome and please share.
Jim Cooper
Captain / Training Officer
NORFPD, Oregon
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Jim Cooper on
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Hello all,
Sorry I have been away at a Firefighter Safety & Survival Symposium at DPSST in Salem Oregon. Awesome speakers I must say, definitely recharged my batteries. I am glad to see that there were a few more responses to my posting. I think at the very heart of this topic is the fact that as a fire service we need to both promote and except change in some of our fire service culture. Yes we are making some changes in regards to physical fitness, and tactical decision making etc. However as a culture in the beginning it was acceptable for most to die in the line of duty thus being elevated to hero status. Thankfully we, I believe are getting further away from that, as it should not be acceptable to die. Several other ideas were brought up such as hydrogen cyanide poisoning, obviously the physical fitness (lack thereof), and the Donut Cult problem. My point with this forum was to generate discussion based on the leading cause of death in the fire service. Obviously under staffing is not the main problem as I believe the lack of physical fitness and things like the "Donut Cult" contribute more greatly. It is not just one thing that we need to focus on in my opinion though we must look at all contributing factors. I agree with some of all of your points; however I also believe that lack of man or woman power is something that needs to be addressed when on scene and in the fire house. We are a fat nation, just look at some of our elementary school kids. The fire service is addressing the physical fitness aspect. As a nation I do not believe the fire service is addressing some of these other mentioned issues at least not largely and collectively like the physical fitness issues. Back to under staffing. What are the answers to mitigate this? Yes mutual aid both automatic or requested is one major way to mitigate it. But in some cases and locals that first requires admitting that we need help which for whatever reason is hard for some to admit. So in those instances the no backing down "defensive" mode is instead quickly overshadowed by the "Get R Done" mode. The "Get R Done" mode is then employed and the few work harder with less to achieve the desired outcome. Most of us would probably agree that cultures most basic definition is learned behavior. If the "Get R Done" or "Donut Cult" is portrayed again and again like a rerun TV show in some of our fire houses that may be all some know. Change will not occur and that local culture will not differ until someone works to change it for whatever topic it may be. Thank you all for your opinions, ideas, and thoughts.
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Permalink Reply by Laura on
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Cptn. Cooper,
Wow. That was well put. I understand what you mean about being physically fit, a lot of firefighters in my area are not well fit, and that obvioulsy hinders their performance in the field. Plus, i dont think people understand that not being fit can lead to having a heart attack. With all of the work involved and how exhausting a call could be they should be more fit. Not to mention it would most likely reduce their risk of a heart attack.
Also, i'm not sure if i understand your meaning on "understaffing" but i think i do. In my area we sometimes have to get three tone outs before we even get to the station. Even then the trucks only roll with 2 or 3 people on the Rescue and maybe 4 on an Engine, half of the trucks wont even roll. We had a Greyhound Bus roll over with over 50 people on it the other morning on the highway and they toned us out 3 times before anyone responded and we only had one EMT on the one ambulance and six patients. He had to make two trips back and forth with 3 patients in the rig each time. We should've had people there to get the other ambulnce out since we do have 2 of them. I understand we are a volunteer company, but thats no reason for no one to get out for the call, esspecially a call like that, it's not like they were working, it was 4:30 in the morning. We had a possible plane crash (false alarm) and everyone was responding to the station with in about four minutes, some times i dont understand it lol. Also with calling for mutual aid... I've been on calls where our personell had the "get r done attitude" and cancelled them when we really did need them, even with MCI conditions.
But your point of view is correct and your ideas were well put. I read some of the comments for this and i guess all i can say is, that your going to have people who dont have the right attitude for the job. I've heard a lot of people say that i should'ne be nvolved in firefighting because i'm only 16 and a girl, but I look at the same way you do. We just have some close-minded people, and like i said, they dont have the right attitude for the job.
Take care and keep up the good work!
Laura*
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Permalink Reply by Art "ChiefReason" Goodrich on
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[quote]Thanks for your response though Art although I am concerned about your lack of focus towards the big issue which was the topic of this post.[end of quote]
Coop:
I'm a little concerned about your lack of focus to my reply on the BIG issues.
Been busy?
TCSS.
Art
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Permalink Reply by Mary Ellen Shea on
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An added comment regarding physical fitness; we had drill last night and rather than reviewing pump out ops, the Chief had a moment of kindness and kept us inside for a turnout donning and doffing drill. (You can read all about my pathetic performance in my sole previous turnout challenge in my FNG(irl) blogs).
At the end of the third evolution, the ten or so least-in-shape firefighters were literally panting for air and slowing down considerably during the exercise. Let's suppose that this was an on-scene scenario, not a drill...
Granted, you're not going to be expected to clamber in and out of your gear three times in a row on-scene, but if you're at an incident that requires a higher than normal level of physical exertion, these same firefighters might well be experiencing a level of cardiac and cardiovascular stress that would mimic the level they experienced during drill.
That scares me.
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:-P
I didn't make it in under 2:00, but I was DAMNED close....and that's WITH air this time.
I'll accept a peeled grape in lieu of groveling.
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Permalink Reply by Jeff Betz on
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It should. However, it is nearly the same all over the place, which is even more scary. In our area we have some folks that I get nervous about when we are doing evolutions (drilling or for real). I think the real problem is trying to change a fire service culture that has been the same for so many years. I don't think that should deter the efforts to get this thing turned around though, eventually it will become more accepted to be in shape (but we might be long gone by then).
I recall when I was a "newbie" and couldn't get the chief at the time or some of the older guys to change some of the things we were doing, simply because we had never done it that way and we were not about to start now. My reply? OK, have it your way, but I will outlive your a** and change it when you are gone...really made some friends there!
Maybe that is what it will take on fitness, manning, & other hot topics. Keep at it and wait until you become the majority, then get real change to happen.
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Boy; is my face red.
When I read Coop's response, I thought he was referring to my second post concerning hydrogen cyanide.
Here, I thought I was the only Art here.
Well, he got the long winded of it anyway.
Art
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Sorry Art,
No the Art that made the ridiculous grammar comment in which he misspelled as "grammer" did delete his comment and he is the Art I was referring to. Sorry I have not responded to your post in question things have been really busy in my career and personal life. I will respond to that post asap.
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Thank you Laura,
Wow that is a scary number of responders for a bus accident. Primarily what I mean by under staffing is just that but in the fire response aspect. To run a fire scene by the book so to speak you can easily need over 10 people when you account for the IC, Safety Officer, Water Supply, Pumper Operator, 2 in and 2 out, Rehab and that isn't even figuring in and Operations section, RIT/RIC or any replacement personnel. We have responded to room and content fires and structure fires with just four to six personnel. So what happens I believe is that those few tend to perform to an even higher level using more effort and increased stress on their bodies and its systems. So this coupled with the poor physical condition of some firefighters I believe may contribute to a number of the heart attacks our fire service is experiencing.
Jim
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Good Point,
I have read a bit about the hydrogen cyanide issues and heart attacks. I have always made people aware of the dangers during overhaul and highly encourage use of SCBA during those operations. I think people tend to be lulled by the lack of much if any smoke and seem to have a sense that they don't need an SCBA during overhaul which in my opinion is just plain wrong and dangerous. I must admit I need to research hydrogen cyanide further but sure I believe it contributes as well and maybe more than the lack of physical fitness. However I still believe that the lack of fitness combined with the lack of staffing volunteer or career makes for more and harder work for each member taxing them further, Thus also contributing to the heart attack issue.
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Hey Art,
Sorry I am just now responding to this post. Basically what you stated is all of the things I have kind of formed this topic on. You are right in the fact that we should merge with other departments or districts and call mutual aid faster. However if your other neighbor agencies are as understaffed as you are merging may not contribute as much as it should. We have that problem in our county where the entire county has under 200 firefighters, we are currently addressing that issue. And we do have good mutual aid policies, however they must be initiated which is what I was refering to. I have seen some IC's due to self pride or even agency pride or for some other reason either hold off on requesting mutual aid or not at accepting it at all. We could have automatic mutual aid sure; however that must be set up and agreed upon but it would make it much better. IC's could still cancel the incoming mutual aid but that would be on their head. I totally agree with you that if you don't have enough for interior operations and there is no viable victim then you should be defensive. And I also agree that we should not just accept anyone who breaths as a member just because we are under staffed. If we do, then put them in a support role which there are plenty of. And yes the turnouts and equipment combined with the lack of personnel on scene I think are one of the contributing factors to this issue and topic. I have and will continue to request early mutual aid and perform exterior fire suppression operations when understaffed and promote the same whenever I can. And yes we definetely need to know when to say no as leaders, something I mentally prepare for.
Thanks for the very dedicated response Art,
Jim
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Permalink Reply by lutan1 on
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I'm struggling with the mutual aid thing- members need to get over this pride thing and start thinking about the incident from the victims perspective.
We're their to save lives, protecxt property, etc and if ego is a contributing factor as to why we don't call for assistance then there's some big issues here that need to be addressed.
And I don't believe it to be a contributing factor to heart attacks.
In relation to understaffing being a contributor- again, I disagree.
Got to many, many fire departments and you'll find staff sitting around doing nothing mroe than watching TV and eating. Many don't/won't train, don't/won't exercise, etc.
There's huge amounts of down time in plenty of departments- members need to get proactive in terms of pre-planning, training AND exercising.
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