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Monday morning quarter backs: Where is the leadership? Where is the safety officer?
Monday morning quarterbacks: Please carefully review the video at the following links. Make a note of your observations of safety issues that you see:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLl1XM6C--g
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zm1WQbf8Xq0
Ask these questions at your next training session. What were the risks to personnel and equipment? What safety violations do you observe? What actions would you have taken differently as a company officer and as the incident commander?
Lets start the list here in your replies.
Remember: The efforts being exerted by the firefighters to ventilate where certainly great. However we all need to compare what the risks to their lives were to the possible benefits of the actions they were taking. Firefighter safety must be the most important function for every company officer and every incident commander. When will we learn???
Where are our command officers? Where are our safety officers? Where are our training officers? Why are the scenes in this video not unusual?
Could they have been taken at your last incident?
What will every department learn from these videos?
Can these videos help saves the lives of other firefighters or are we doomed to continue depending upon our own dumb luck?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLl1XM6C--g
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zm1WQbf8Xq0
Ask these questions at your next training session. What were the risks to personnel and equipment? What safety violations do you observe? What actions would you have taken differently as a company officer and as the incident commander?
Lets start the list here in your replies.
Remember: The efforts being exerted by the firefighters to ventilate where certainly great. However we all need to compare what the risks to their lives were to the possible benefits of the actions they were taking. Firefighter safety must be the most important function for every company officer and every incident commander. When will we learn???
Where are our command officers? Where are our safety officers? Where are our training officers? Why are the scenes in this video not unusual?
Could they have been taken at your last incident?
What will every department learn from these videos?
Can these videos help saves the lives of other firefighters or are we doomed to continue depending upon our own dumb luck?
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Moose on
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Let me try to answer some of your concerns about training habits of certain departments firesiren, in a respectful and friendly way.
First, not all departments can afford the big training towers with burn simulators and such, and therefore have to come up with new and creative ways to get the basic training to our members. That is done with "Acquired Houses", houses set for demolition that we use for training purposes and than burn down for the owner.
During our use of these houses we practice taking doors, search and rescue, stretching attack lines the proper way, ventilation and overhaul practices, Ladder ops, and towards the end we set different rooms on fire with pallets or hay and give the newer members the feel for heat and smoke filled environments, and the nozzle people a chance to stretch to the seat and extinguish it. Finally, the pump guys/gals get to practice their pumping skills on multiple handlines, relays, tanker shuttles, etc.
Than the house is burned down, saving the homeowner some money on the overall demolition costs.
So yes, to answer your question respectfully, we train all the time on how to save buildings and I take immense pride in the fact that I have seen many houses saved in my area in my 20 years. I have seen them burn to the ground as well, but we are not all perfect and we all loose some every now and then.
Thanks for your comments and concerns, I hope all is well in your neck of the woods, stay safe out there.
Moose
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Question for you guys, whats the "Gasoline Shingles" and how old/new are they? Are they still in use today or only found in older buildings.
Another question about the triple deckers, are they required to have a fire rated barrier between each unit? How many families do they typically fit into one of those?
Thanks
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Permalink Reply by Dave on
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I asume ron you are talking about us Not wearing hoods and having the option of not wear bunker pants?? Yes Ron your right, we are so unprofessional because we dont wear hoods. By the way...I'm being sarcastic. My dept did a study, it can be found on line , as to why they gave us the option of no bunker pants. before bunker pants, we had a 4% burn injury of out members, with bunker pants we had a 4 % burn injury rate with bunker pants, but the STRESS related injuries went thru the roof. Not going to get into the medical aspect of the affects stress plays on the cardiovascular system with you....I'll let you google it. To many firefghters think by wearing a hood you can walk thru fire, as the video shows...without a hood they would never have been able to even enter the shed with out intense pain and burning instantly. You dont have to like my dept, but we test gear constantly, we change polices constantly, and they do what they feel is best for the members of the dept.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-8rtS9MjQs
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Brian, GAsoline shingles are old. Not used anymore because they are flamable. When fire hits them they take off like a shot, burn fast an hot. When you have two triple deckers side by side and the fire auto vents out a side window and hits these shingles the fire takes off. Exposure is a major concern when you arrive at a fire with these. If the house that is on fire has them or the house beside the fire building has them....exposure is a major concern. They call them GAsoline shingles because of hoe they burn, they may have a petrolium product in them.
Triple deckers can be ballon frame, or platform. depends on the time of construction. Usually three, but I have seen them turn them into a boarding house in which every room is a bedroom. they are illegal, but until there is a fire who can stop them?? So, usually three, the triple decker duplex fits 6 families and the boarding house fits 20 plus
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I agree with you on that. I started out with the hip boots and 3/4 coat in Long Island, than when I moved upstate they required you to wear bunkers 100% of the time. They do create stress related injuries and heat related injuries. The hip boots provide you with more mobility and range of movement too.
Where can I find your departments study Dave? Id like to look at that, thanks.
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Permalink Reply by FETC on
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Guys it is the Boston Fire Department. They go to jobs on a regular basis. Can you honestly say that you see the same amount of fire as they do? Ladder Ops in the city is done mostly without an airpack. It is the way it is. Called "tradition" I know that many will say you are cracked in the head but big city departments have tradition instilled. They see alot of fire with very few major injuries or LODD considering they see some serious shit.
So you can't bash them too much.
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Permalink Reply by Ron Graner on
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No Dave, you missed the points;
I am talking about the need to improve firefighter safety in every department. Its size, location, makeup or number of job does not matter because every job as the potential to kill immediately or long term.
I am taking about the potential for legal and personnel actions against your department when there are future injuries and deaths and some smart lawyer uses your materials to support the case against a department policy of neglect of basic safety procedures in training and in operations.
I am talking about disciplinary actions that can be taken against company officers and commanders who fail to enforce safety practices during operations.
I am talking about LOD deaths in your department from cancer and heart attacks and why the major causes of death are from cancer and heart attacks and what the impact of not wearing SCBA is on those LOD deaths
I am talking about your department’s LOD deaths from falling through roofs and your claim that people do not need to wear PPE while working on roofs.
You comments about heat stress potential doesn’t hold water in the world of legal actions when full PPE is worn in major departments in the hottest climates in the nation. The answer for that is developing policy that rotates and cools down personnel working in that heat and using the cool down kidney packs that reduce blood stream heat gain.
If you are active in your local IAFF, you have the opportunity to work to assure that the LOD deaths reported in your department does not grow.
Another person commented on the issue of risk takers in the fire service and how that climate is hard to change. I have been one of those risk takers and I learned the hard way with the death of my friends and from officers who did insist that we follow safe practices as we did our interior firefighting and roof work. We as a profession need to learn from the past.
It really is up to you how you want to see this profession grow and learn from its mistakes. Read the reports from Charleston and learn from their mistakes and see the personal damages to families and the department from those mistakes.
Check out the following links to see just some of what others in our profession are doing to improve safety and to see the LOD deaths in your department. Each of those people in your department was just trying to do their jobs as best they could to improve safety for Boston’s citizens. What is being done by you and your department to improve the safety of those others who are willing to die for others?
Ron
IAFF re union activity to improve ff safetysafety
John P Redmond foundation
http://www.iaff.org/comm/charity/foundation.htm
IAFC RE IAFC actions to improve safety
http://www.iafc.org/displaycommon.cfm?an=1&subarticlenbr=306
Boston LOD deaths
http://www.iaff.org/hs/lodd/search_results_line.asp
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Ron,
Your right, every job and every dept can do something to make things better and safer. If a guy falls off a roof and is wearing his SCBA and his vision was impaired we would be screaming that we should tie a rope around all members on the roof, when the member gets hung with this we will try something else. My dept looks at the job and what they feel is a safe way to operate. The guys are not going to the roof on there own and not wearing the mask on there own, this is dept wide and we are not the only dept to do this. Should the guy have had his coat zipped...sure...you got me there!! We dont do there knee jerk reaction like most depts, just because a person in the NFPA says thats what they suggest doesnt mean it is going to work and is best suited for the job at hand. I do not recall ever saying the PPE is not to be worn on the roof, PPE is different for every call and situation.
We wear the Mask where it is needed, we operate in a way that is best for My dept. We open roofs where it is needed, we run handlines to the seat of the fire like our SOG state. We use the tactics that we have been taught and changes tactics where it is needed. We have higher up's that look at the NFPA and tell us if it will work and is the best for us, some GUIDELINES are incoperated,and I am sure some are not. I am sure they are well aware of the legal issue's that not following strict NFPA and OSHA guidelines have. We go to the fires and use the tactics we use to put out the fire and we go home quickly. No matter what you do, people will always get hurt and killed in this job no matter how many GUIDELINES OSHA and NFPA write.
Stay Safe Ron
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Permalink Reply by Tom Lambui on
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Ron,
You berate Dave for airing his dept.s' dirty laundry, when in fact you were the one who started this whole thread. Dave is not boasting about unsafe practices or what is the accepted norm, he's been replying to questions asked by others on this thread. If you don't like the answer, don't ask the question.
As far as the bunker gear and hood issue...... Personally (and it's just my silly opinion), I believe bunker gear is the worst thing to ever happen to the fire service. When I went thru proby school (over 18 yrs. ago), we were told by ALL the senior FFs. and instructors that if your ears start getting too hot, IT'S TIME TO GET OUT!! Now we get dressed up in these insulated bubbles, hoods up, flaps down, and get farther into fires then we ever have before. Now, when it's too hot, it's too late to get out safely.
As for the medical reprecusions, I don't have the exact figures, but compare todays FF fatalities due to cardiacs (or other medically, non trauma, induced deaths) to the years before bunker gear was introduced. I'm sure you'll see a huge jump in numbers.
Bottom line, do what you think is safe, and hopefully we all make it home to our famalies. Like I said before...it IS a dangerous profession!
Ride safe!!
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Permalink Reply by Ben Waller on
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Tom,
I was taught the same thing about not wearing bunker pants and flash hoods when I started fighting fires over 30 years ago. I started out wearing a rubber-coated canvas coat, 3/4 pullup boots, and a metal Senator helmet. I never liked the idea of using any part of my body as a fire detector. I thought that idea was a bad one then and I think it's a bad ideaI now.
Why use an irreplaceable body part as a thermometer? Current technology allows us to shield every body part from fire, heat, smoke, and the associated poisons. A thermal imager does a tremendous job of finding the fire and determining heat levels without the need to expose any skin. An infrared thermometer can do the same thing. Either of those tools work detect high heat conditions without putting firefighters in the burn center because of incomplete body protection.
I have friends and acquaintences who spent months in burn units due to using body parts as thermometers back in the day. All are still firefighters, and all tell me that they wish that they had been wearing complete PPE when they were injured, as their burns would have either not have happened or would have been much less severe.
I've personally been saved from serious burns on several occasions by wearing full turnout gear including pants and hoods. On all occasions, I was caught in rapidly-deteriorating conditions that no amount of bare skin would have warned me of in time. I was happy to go to the Quartermaster and have some new gear issued instead of being in the burn center.
As for the jump in LODDs, the overall numbers have stayed about the same, although the per-capita numbers have gone up since the number of working fires is down. There are many variables that haven't been accurately measured in why per-capita LODDs have increased. I can tell you one BIG reason - we're doing the same amount of work with far fewer firefighters, in most places. Budget cuts for career departments and fewer volunteers for the vollies mean that everyone has to do more work under very stressful conditions. That's bound to cause negative health impacts, especially when it's repetitive.
Then there's the fact that structural fires burn hotter and faster, and with more toxic byproducts than they used to. Plastics, treated wood, electronic devices, etc, make a bad fire situation worse.
I don't think we can just blame the gear, when so many other variables haven't been ruled out and less manpower is a given for most of us.
What we do is inherently dangerous, but there are strategic, tactical, and technological improvements we can use to make things safer.
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Ben,
Dont take what I am about to say as disrepectful...It's not. I have worked as support staff for the state fire academy. One day I was tasked with another staff member to fill the attic with straw and pallets for a few evolutions they had planned for mid afternoon. What they had planned to do was create a fire in the attic, make a vent opening and then put a stream into the opening . They put the recruits on the floor below the attic and open a window in the room they are in. We light the fire with multi pallets and bundles of straw. We lined the room with enough straw to do the number of burns needed for this. As the fire grew in intensity, and my partner was placing more straw on the fire I Was forced to kneel because I did have exposed skin. The fire in the attic got so hot, that across the room where I had the straw....it caught fire! His helmet melted, his SCBA straps discolored and he could care less. The fact is, if this was a building, with regular furniture....the room would have flashed over on us!!
I Know what people say, but by not wearing a hood...It has saved my bacon. I feel that I can feel the changes quicker then with a hood on and react quicker. We have firefighters out there that are wearing TWO hoods, because they fear getting burnt. I have read Many a times with firefighters getting caught in flashover, and feel that this can be one of many causes. We have all seen the two firefighters crawl into the shed ( i posted it earlier), no way they would have or could have done that without hood. You tube has another vidoe of a guy running into a backdoor at a training burn with the room fully involved and no water...again, no way they would have done that with no hood. I fear that people put to much faith in these hoods, they go too far, and they loose that attention they need in the heat of battle. They feel they are safe, and I hear it all the time about " We can go in further".
Just my 2 cents, And I am sure i will get kicked in the gut for my views.
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Permalink Reply by Paul Montpetit on
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Well lets back up for a minute.....Has anyone ever looked at the profiles of people here....example...."Time in department".....1 year, or 2 years....or maybe even less......Now the good one...."Positon/Rank".....I find this hard to believe but I have seen it posted......Chief...., Asst Chief...., or even Captain...!!! How in the hell did anyone go through all the training and get the experience to even feel qualified for those positions...? Or maybe it is a popularity thing....You know...Hey He/She is a nice person...lets make them Chief...When I have to go inside on a fire I like to know that the man making the calls knows what he is doing....My Chief has the personality of a pitbull...BUT... you won't find a better person to make the calls than him. We go into hell for him and he knows what/when/and where to draw the line and therefore we all come back...Lets start there...leadership making those calls...Stay safe.............Paul
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