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Monday morning quarter backs: Where is the leadership? Where is the safety officer?
Monday morning quarterbacks: Please carefully review the video at the following links. Make a note of your observations of safety issues that you see:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLl1XM6C--g
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zm1WQbf8Xq0
Ask these questions at your next training session. What were the risks to personnel and equipment? What safety violations do you observe? What actions would you have taken differently as a company officer and as the incident commander?
Lets start the list here in your replies.
Remember: The efforts being exerted by the firefighters to ventilate where certainly great. However we all need to compare what the risks to their lives were to the possible benefits of the actions they were taking. Firefighter safety must be the most important function for every company officer and every incident commander. When will we learn???
Where are our command officers? Where are our safety officers? Where are our training officers? Why are the scenes in this video not unusual?
Could they have been taken at your last incident?
What will every department learn from these videos?
Can these videos help saves the lives of other firefighters or are we doomed to continue depending upon our own dumb luck?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLl1XM6C--g
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zm1WQbf8Xq0
Ask these questions at your next training session. What were the risks to personnel and equipment? What safety violations do you observe? What actions would you have taken differently as a company officer and as the incident commander?
Lets start the list here in your replies.
Remember: The efforts being exerted by the firefighters to ventilate where certainly great. However we all need to compare what the risks to their lives were to the possible benefits of the actions they were taking. Firefighter safety must be the most important function for every company officer and every incident commander. When will we learn???
Where are our command officers? Where are our safety officers? Where are our training officers? Why are the scenes in this video not unusual?
Could they have been taken at your last incident?
What will every department learn from these videos?
Can these videos help saves the lives of other firefighters or are we doomed to continue depending upon our own dumb luck?
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Engineco913 on
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lack or radios, and the constant upgrading/changing of radios is a PITA!!! It costs more money to upgrade the system on what seems a daily basis to find a channel that will work all over, and have the proper back ups, nevermind the word "interoperability"
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Permalink Reply by Rob Elliott on
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Tom, your comments about this sad scene is all to often repeated by guys who just don't get it. EVERYONE GOES HOME!! The actions taken here will be repeated by some kid some where else only to end in LODD. And these guys will say that the kid screwed up. There ain't a building on the Lord's earth worth one Firefighters life. And if all we save is the cellar and we got everyone out---Good job!! This scene, to any trained f/ftr, is one sad Joke. Is your life worth that little? Brother, I say NO you are better than this and it doesn't matter about the building if the occupants made it out . And if some higher up doesn't take care of his people, than where was the union safety committee, never mind the on scene problems training and preparation will help. With every other comment out there, how many f/ftrs does it take to get a ground ladder off the truck. As for where was the safety officer.......ever driven in Boston?
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Permalink Reply by Dave on
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Tom, you know whats funny, they all think they know what they are talking about.
To terry, No , we dont wear the SCBA on the roof. It is cumbersome and hinders the guys working on the roof. Helmets have a habit of falling off when you bend over. By the way, before one opens his mouth about safety...Look at your pics!! Do i see you making a cut on a steering column with no EYE PROTECTION??? TISK TISK!! i see a broken window in your glass house
Brian, Yes...this is my dept, The City of Boston, and the action of these men not only saved propery they SAVED MANY LIVES that day! first due engine reported people in the building and had a few even jump from windows. Multiple rescues made over ladders and from inside.
The Fact of the matter is this, 95% of you are vollies/call guys and unless it is written in some NFPA or OSHA book you have never seen or experienced it. To fill you in, zero smoke inhalation injuries from the guys on the roof, zero burns suffered from the guys on roof, and one hell of a vent hole....to me.....Great Job getting the roof open with all that was going on around them. You may not like the No SCBA, or the No helmet or the verbal com's, but then again....I dont like some small time firefighter that has been to 3 fires all year long and has very little experience interior telling me and others with my experience what we did wrong. Walk in my shoes, until then keep going to your company meetings and make sure to vote on who your next officers are. Firefighters like me will cont to put out what you talk about!
HAve a nice and safe day
Dave
BFD
Rescue 2
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Permalink Reply by lutan1 on
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If you're talking about Ron, who started this topic, check out his profile-
Rank/Role There:
Fire Chief / Chief of Department
Years With This Department/Agency
after 40 years in 4 departments in 3 states, I retired
Other Past or Current Departments:
FF, Lt, Capt, Battalion Chief, Director Ops 9-1-1 City of Rochester New York, Fire Chief; Cherokee County GA, Stamford CT, Fulton County GA
My Training:
Lots: Its in my first book: Fire Chief Lessons learned climbing the ladder: an autobiography
About Me:
Author:
The Fire Chief's Tool Box, a career development guide for fire department personnel with the goal of becoming leaders and for Fire Chiefs who want to stay Fire Chiefs. published by Fire Engineering Books and Videos
and
Fire Chief Lessons learned climbing the ladder: an autobiography. Every story in the book is true.
Day Job:
Public safety consultant
Side Jobs or Other Organizations:
Peer Assessor, Team leader, Commission on Fire Accreditation International, Center for Public Safety Excellence
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Permalink Reply by Ron Graner on
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Dave
I am not surprised, but I am sorry, that you are not buying my books, or apparently any of the others that have been written by those of us who have been down the same path before you. The many books written by folks who have walked the path ahead of you just might help you see this profession that you are in a bit clearer. The sharing of past experiences is how we learn and improve.
For the record, my books are NOT my reason for being on this site.
The only reason for posting this or any discussion about safety is to get people in all areas of the fire service thinking. It makes no difference if you are in the largest department or the smallest, this job can kill when we do stupid things that we do not have to do. Ask your Dad about the deaths during his career in your department. What was learned from their deaths? How many died doing things the same way you are doing things today? During my first 26 years on the job, I lost 2 of my closest friends and classmates from rooky school. Over the 40+ years I have attended way to many funerals of friends and comrades.
I can assure you that many of the things you wrote above and that you accept as normal risk should not be acceptable in any modern forward thinking department. I urge you to start a discussion quietly in your own department in your own station with your own leaders and do that important after action critique about this and every other incident that you respond to. See what you all can learn from those past actions that will make the next job safer for all.
Your department leadership should be leading the way in using pictures like these to improve operations and the mind set that you express. My best guess is that with its progressive leadership the senior leaders in your department have already been in work sessions doing just that and that you will being seeing the results of their critiques in new SOP’s someday soon.
I also urge you to read the after action report from Charleston and then carefully examine what you do and how you do it. How many times have you, and I, done the same things and walked away from it? Those brave men were all dedicated to the fire service and their primary fault is that their department did not learn from the mistakes made by others because THEY were the biggest and best department in their area.
Please think safety and help your department to rethink how it operates. The lives of your comrades are worth that effort.
In case you are interested, my first book is an autobiography of the really dumb shit stuff that I did and saw during my career that cost lives and injuries to good people who really cared about this job and serving the public.
My goal in writing the second book was to help make better leaders for the fire service in the future and better leaders start with smarter firefighters learning from past mistakes made by others like me.
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Ron,
We do discuss our actions both on the ride back to the station and at the kitchen table. You show a small clip of the fire and bash My dept. Like I stated in the past, these same guys you are bashing pulled off some amazing rescues that day. Rescues where if elsewhere from other depts that spoke up and the only thing they could comment on was " where is the scba", " why is he kicking his burning helmet" would have died. Boston is an agressive INTERIOR dept, one of a dying breed. What everyone missed and I am more concerned about is....why no ladder to the rear?? The comments on here and lack of actually looking shows the lack of experience in most on this site. Everyone is too busy looking for SCBA on roof's!! Give me a break
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Dave
Not to offend you and certainly not BFD. However small clips show what they show and they are what is used in LOD death reviews all the time along with the in-depth interviews with everyone concerned. What is seen demonstrates what has been done. (Yep, the good stuff never seems to be filmed, mostly because those doing it are inside in the heat and smoke)
RE SCBA on the roof, as an old trucker, I hated wearing one on a roof too for the same reasons. However after my picture was in a the newspaper without one OSHA filed a formal complaint with my department and I quickly found out that the law REQUIRES SCBA to be used and that was over 20 years ago.
RE your comment about a rear ladder, that is on target.
RE interior VS exterior and a dying breed, my departments where always interior firefighters but today we all need to examine our operations strategy in the light of staffing and construction changes over the years. We need to establish policies that prevent us from losing lives for property that can and will be replaced with better and risk lives only for saving lives.
Stay safe
Ron
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If you have been following this discussion and it seems that there are still some folks out there who do not give a high priority to safety, now is the time to check out the current safety survey at
http://www.firefighternation.com/profiles/blog/show?id=889755%3ABlo...
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Permalink Reply by Moose on
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I love how career ff's always resort to the corny "Foundation Saver" argument when they are being proven wrong... Got anything new?
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Why is that everyone thinks its an ok excuse for proper use of PPE to be "We are an aggressive Interior Dept"?
Can you still be aggressive AND wear your turnouts? As far as helmets falling off, (Forgot who said that, sorry) thats what they make straps for, to keep your helmet on.
Im very glad they were able to make rescues that day Dave, and that thing makes all of us proud, but thats no excuse for not buttoning a coat, or wearing SCBA even though your on the roof. My line of thinking is, what if the roof gives way, and you fall to the next floor which is charged with smoke? Im just trying to say it doesnt hurt to have one on to save your life should the shit hit the fan.
People make mistakes everywhere, from the big career city departments to the small rural volunteer departments, the important thing to remember for everyone though...Its the ones that Admit to doing wrong and try to learn from their mistakes that will make the difference in LODD's, not the ones that make excuses and think they are the best in the service. (and I am in no way trying to be disrespectful to anyone, just sharing my opinion with everyone.)
Stay Safe Everyone
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