The Social Network & Community JUST for Firefighters
2nd Alarm or Not, That is the Question
I noticed that on alot of senerio's people are quickly calling from 2nd alarms. And I noticed that I read about a house fire going to 3 alarms. In our county (New Castle, DE) most alarms are 2-1-1. Working alarms brings a RIT unit which is usually the 3rd due engine. Each additional alarm brings 2-1-1. Which means the 2nd due rescue could be responding from a distance.
My thoughts on 2nd alarms. For years we had issues with officers piecemealing a 2nd alarm. By that I mean I need another engine. I need a rescue, give me a ladder, etc etc. Some felt that by pulling the trigger people would feel that they paniced or at least over reacted. Over the last couple of years more and more officers are calling the "duece" as the young'n like to call it.
As an officer you have to understand what you need and why you need it. Take a vollie company has a house fire at 8am in a hydranted development. First engine goes on location with fire showing. They have another engine from mutual aid on the road. What do they need and why? A 2nd alarm, an additional engine, ladder or rescue. Our enignes are capaable of running at least 6 lines. So another engine...no. Is there extension or ventalion issues so maybe a ladder? Need more manpower so maybe a rescue? How about just a ladder and resuce. Call for an engine cover so one is on the road.
I thing I would love to hear is someone call for a 2nd alarm for manpower and FF's respond oin Van's since apparatus is needed. I've seen many a fire when 10-15 units are parked somewhere and the FF's at the scene.
But remember you need to understand what you need and why you need it before you call it
My thoughts on 2nd alarms. For years we had issues with officers piecemealing a 2nd alarm. By that I mean I need another engine. I need a rescue, give me a ladder, etc etc. Some felt that by pulling the trigger people would feel that they paniced or at least over reacted. Over the last couple of years more and more officers are calling the "duece" as the young'n like to call it.
As an officer you have to understand what you need and why you need it. Take a vollie company has a house fire at 8am in a hydranted development. First engine goes on location with fire showing. They have another engine from mutual aid on the road. What do they need and why? A 2nd alarm, an additional engine, ladder or rescue. Our enignes are capaable of running at least 6 lines. So another engine...no. Is there extension or ventalion issues so maybe a ladder? Need more manpower so maybe a rescue? How about just a ladder and resuce. Call for an engine cover so one is on the road.
I thing I would love to hear is someone call for a 2nd alarm for manpower and FF's respond oin Van's since apparatus is needed. I've seen many a fire when 10-15 units are parked somewhere and the FF's at the scene.
But remember you need to understand what you need and why you need it before you call it
Replies to This Discussion
-
Permalink Reply by Just Plain Craig Moyer on
-
I have to clarify something since I was having computer issues. I said I would like to see FF's respond in vans because appatarus is NOT needed.
-
Permalink Reply by John Crabbe on
-
My thoughts pretty much reflect that of the dept and when it comes to calling additional alarms, it is always easier to have enough resources when needed with the ability to send crews back, vs not having enough on scene. I understand the issue with so many resources on scene when the only thing needed is manpower, and if such a case is necessary, rigs can be staged.
I don't really agree with sending FF's in vans just for manpower, because if a unit is not needed it is easier to send them back as a crew, vs waiting for a van to bring them back to a station. Second reason is that if extra units are called and not necessarily needed, they are able to respond to another alarm if needed and have the resources available on the rig.
We have been in numerous situations where the rigs were not needed but manpower was and the rigs were staged somewhere and crews walked in. We also had a fire that went to 2 alarms, all the resources really were not needed, but while on scene there was a second fire a few blocks away where there ended up being a fatality, but crews were able to respond with enough resources from the other fire.
Our area recently went to MABAS and while not a new concept, it was in this area and alarm cards changed and so did some of the common terminology. Shortly after this went in place there was a house fire and the battalion chief wanted a second alarm and he called dispatch and requested (accidently) a second "box"....basically a 4th alarm. Needless to say we had fire companies coming in from all over and the request worked, but we way more resources than needed and most companies were simply turned back or sent to cover stations until off duty personnel could backfill reserve rigs.
Basically it is easier to send rigs back that are not needed vs trying to determine exactly what you need before it is too late. Our officers are trained to make that determination for a greater alarm based on what they see. If they see a large column of smoke coming out of the barn and they request a second alarm, they can, even before getting on scene and determine that the first alarm resources can handle things.
-
Permalink Reply by FireDaily.com on
-
As an incident commander I would rather have extra companies responding and staged at my disposal. I can always turn them around or send them home.
IC's need to operate knowing three key components: what do I have, what will be happening in ten minutes, what do I need?
The immediate availabilty of fireground assets is always needed for a safe and effective mitigation of the incident. Extreme weather and other special considerations always call for an extra level of response.
If firefighters are needed, they should respond as a company with their own equipment. Firefighters without an apparatus are just well-dressed people at a fire robbing equipment from other company's apparatus.
If apparatus is parked on the road sans their crew, they are simply working with equipment they carried in by hand. Apparatus not needed for any other reason may clutter up if parked too close to the scene.
-
Permalink Reply by Ben Waller on
-
When a lot of career departments have two or three-firefighter engine staffing and a lot of volly departments have very limited daytime manpower, you almost have to throw the deuce on the box to guarantee enough manpower to multitask every necessary job.
The days of a 2 and 1 for a room and contents might have been OK for urban departments with good water supplies, 6 firefighters per rig, no lightweight construction, and no need for RIT.
With the need to staff RIT and the fact that lightweight houses fall down more quickly and easily, resulting in the possible need for even more RIT manpower, the deuce makes sense.
As for sending the manpower on a van, yes, it would be cheaper, but that won't take care of the next fire when a company is returning in a van and shows up with three guys in a van.
-
Permalink Reply by Jay Nicholson on
-
As for sending the manpower on a van, yes, it would be cheaper, but that won't take care of the next fire when a company is returning in a van and shows up with three guys in a van.
We used to respond with a split crew in a van to MA calls. But then automatic aid came around and required at least a 3-man crew with an officer. Now instead of showing up in a $30K van that gets great millage, it's a $500K engine.
-
Permalink Reply by Derek R. on
-
At any structure fire, we, and neighboring communities, always call for mutual aid. We get a light description of the fire, and that dictates whether to respond with a tanker and manpower to the scene, or standby at their dept with tanker or pumper and manpower, either for possible assistance or to cover for them should another call happen. So if in fact they do call for assistance, we're staged at their dept. 95% of our MA involves tanker and manpower. Our rescue unit usually responds as well. Like mentioned before, better to have them and not need them rather than need them and not have them.
If this seems cluttered or confusing, my appologies, I'm sick.
kaeep safe and have fun
-
Permalink Reply by NOVAFireman on
-
Maybe it's time to up the first alarm assignment to ensure there is enough bodies and apparatus are on scene.
We have 4 engines, 2 trucks, rescue or 3rd truck, ambulance, 2 BC's, Safety, and EMS BC if available on the first alarm. In extreme weather, heat/cold, a 5th engine and ambulance are added to the assignment. Rarely to our jobs go beyond the first alarm due to response times, and size of the assignment. If there are reports of persons trapped, the BC will call for the 2nd alarm while units are enroute.
Like it was said, the days of 2 engines and a truck for the house fire are long gone.
-
Permalink Reply by Dustin J. Millis on
-
It never hurts to have extra help... Call early! Call often!
-
Permalink Reply by lutan1 on
-
Here in Victoria, Australia, we have two different fire services.
The MFB run the "alarm" system where they call for 2nd, third, etc as required, which automatically despatches whatever is relevant to that alarm code.
The CFA on the other hand simply call for what they want. ie: make pumpers 3, means they get 3 pumpers. It's determined by the OIC in terms what specific resources they need.
for me the CFA system is far more useful and allows the OIC to actually lead the incident and direct resources as they see fit.
-
Permalink Reply by Spanner 122 on
-
I suppose I see your point with responding in vans, except, if the shit hits the fan! Being in a career department we have no choice but to respond with apparatus and 9 times out of 10 there is equipment off of them all (unless we park far enough away and can avoid being pillaged). We had a house fire this weekend that went to a second alarm because of potential exposure issues. The homes are large, very close together and under construction so the risk of a quick spreading fire is high. We used all personnel on scene for one thing or another and at one point had to bail head first out a second story window because the fire went from "looks like it's just about knocked down" to raging through the roof. We have the luxury of fresh crews for replenishment when needed. Sometimes those responding in late are simply clean up, but it's nice not to roll hose when you've been working for two hours!
We also had a house fire go to a third alarm (a couple of times), again because of exposure issues, but also because it was a very large home and balloon construction. It took hours to get a "loss stopped" because we kept chasing it. My crew went through 5 air bottles that night while we worked, and that was with rotating the crews through.
If you have the manpower and the equipment and the situation calls for it, send it. Why worry about too many? I would worry about two few if things got out of hand for whatever reason. The latter is certainly more of a concern and having extra equipment on the rigs, such as chainsaws and fans, incase of malfunction is always good. Calling rigs piece at a time is a waste of command's times. Put in the alarm and send them back if necessary.
-
Permalink Reply by larry jenkins on
-
I'm in the same area as NOVAfireman and we get 34 people on the 1st alarm. Any normal house fire should be able to be kept to one alarm. Any bigger structure and the size of the fire may require additional alarms. I agree that we seem to call for aditional alarms too soon. I think it comes from the IC not having enough fireground expierence or confidence in his troops. I agree you should call for help early when needed, just don't do it because you have a working incident.
As far as bringing them in vans instead of trucks. It may sound great to the bean counters but doesn't work well on the street. I have been returning from many working incidents and have gotten dispatched to other calls before we got back to quarters. I've even gone from one working incident to another. You need the fire apparatus with you, not left at the station to save money.
-
Permalink Reply by Adam Gillis on
-
my department and 4 other close by departments operate a daytime mutral aid plan becuase of manpower issues. when there is a structure fire no matter what time of day it is our ama goes into effect. but the department w/ the fire sends all units one company brings 2 engine tankers. the other responds one engine and a ladder the other one a tanker. and my departments fast team responds from another county across the river like 5 to 10 miles away. any other units are called in by request
© 2024 Created by Firefighter Nation WebChief.
Powered by
