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RIT/RIC and hoselines
So RIT?RIC and HOSE LINES
SITREP
Recent reported structure fire in my first due, occupants report smoke and flames showing from hot water heater/ furnace, reports all occupants out of residence. Ariving engine reports nothing showing from exterior smell of smoke comming from open front door upon 360. has 2 ff pull 1 3/4 lead to front door. Second due engine to water supply and two ff to RIT.
Now every class I have gone thru tells me RIT/RIC in it self does not have a hose line. Thats what back up crews are for right?
Needless to say fire was out upon investigation from attack team with damage only to the furnace and duct work.
What are your thoughts on RIT/RIC and hose lines? What are your SOP/SOG in this reguard?
Sorry for crappy sentance structure and choppy paragraphs trying to do this from my phone.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by AJ Zuccarelli on
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Don, where once, did I say it was useless? You are doing as you have done before, read between the lines to suit an argument. If RIT is activated, and actually needs to go in to get someone, it will not be able to do it. It will take multiple other teams to go in and finish the task. At best, they will give air, and start to extract. What did it take, 3 teams to get Brett Tarver out?
As I said before in my paragraph, it should be focusing on doing preventative things (which in reality should be done by 2nd due truck, but in todays staffing, not many places can send 2 fully {4 or more} staffed Truck Cos to a fire, and still have another company doing RIT), and trying to position themselves near where they can make the quickest access to the majority of the most danger is.
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You have 4 AND an EMT, or a crew of 4, WITH an EMT? If you have a crew of 4, you CAN go in, with no life threat. 2 on the hoseline, and 2 outside. You can have them delegated to other duties, provided that they are ready to make entry (within a reasonable amount of time).
I could have misunderstood your post however, to be that you had 3 and an EMT.
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If you take one thing from this discussion let it be this, It is better to be thought a fool, Than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.Says the guy who had no idea what an IDLH atmosphere was. I saw what you posted, and then deleted. Don't try to play tough guy.
And don't talk shit to me about calling a Mayday, I did it 2 months ago when my partner fell through the floor at a fire. He was not truly down and out, and we were able to extricate, and finish our assignment.
If you are seeing RIT work numerous times, first hand, there is a serious issue in fireground skills, and management. Perhaps that should be worked on before you shift to RIT.
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Permalink Reply by Zachary Wolf on
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3 Firefighters including myself and an EMS only on initial alarm had one off duty ff that showed up shortly after our arrival our pump operator doesnt leave the panel unless shit hits the fan. And this is a moot point what are staffing was since the original post was more about the rit aspects. there was alot that went wrong on this fire and as the IC i know its my resposibility to fix it so it doesnt happen again. But be that as it may, the main question i posed to everyone was does your rit crews staff a back up line or not.
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Permalink Reply by Don Catenacci on
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Simple answer is NO. My career FD I retired from did not, both of my current POC FDs do not.
If a line is needed for RIT our plan is to have a second crew bring it with the RIT crew. I would not be opposed to a charged line being where the RIT crew is staged even if it is not staffed. That would have a line ready and open up options.
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Permalink Reply by John Crabbe on
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the main question i posed to everyone was does your rit crews staff a back up line or not
Zachary,
I moved this to a new response since it was buried in the middle of the thread.
What do you mean by RIT staffing a back up line? Please clarify.
Do you mean does the RIT team function as a back up team? For example there is a single hose team already inside and the "RIT" becomes the back up and RIT together?
Do you mean that you have a a seperate fire attack (one hose) and a seperate back up team (second hose) and then RIT also is sitting on a line (essentially back up the back up and can be redeployed for fire attack or FF operations)?
For us, there is a fire attack team, then there is a back up team and the RIT team consists of the third due engine company. The RIT team grabs the RIT cache from their engine as well as the first due truck and they will pull a hose line. The RIT cache is staged where the officer sees best fit, the RIT then can perform functions such as throwing additional ground ladders, forcing entry, utility control, etc.
In the event a MAYDAY is declared the hoseline is there as an option. Just like there will be saws, hand tools, rope, stretcher, they don't necessarily have to be deployed given the MAYDAY circumstances. The line is there as another tool and an option to get to the downed FF. This does not mean they must enter with the line, but may have to given the conditions. It is also in the county protocol that if a MAYDAY is declared that dispatch automatically sends out the next higher alarm level, this way additional resources will be rolling and IC does not have to worry about asking for it.
As I stated before, there should be a hoseline available for any RIT cache and any RIT team. There are so many things that can go wrong and it is utterly foolish to believe a RIT team should not have a line to use if needed. However, a RIT team should not be committed to any FF operations or serve in a role where they can not immediately break away from in the event of a MAYDAY. This is why the RIT team should NEVER be used as a back up hose team.
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I believe it is utterly foolish to believe there is only one way to accomplish RIT. Whether you have your RIT have a handline, or there is a seperate crew assigned to RIT wth a handline, the capability is still there.
If there is such a need for a handline that the RIT crew must operate it then who is making the rescue.
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Who the heck said there is only one way to accomplish RIT? I clearly stated that a handline should be a part of the RIT cache as an option to use.
Who's making the rescue? Well nobody if you can't get to a FF because of the amount of fire that is encountered or the amount of fire between the downed FF and RIT. Who is manning the extra handline for the RIT then Don? The fire operations still have to take place, this means you have to commit companies to those roles for fire attack. Given the nature of a first alarm fire, most likely you will have your companies working, with one being RIT. Unless you have more designated for a RIT team, then it is pretty tough to say another company can take over a line operations if RIT needs to deploy.
The Boston fire is a clear example of RIT using a line. Sure it would be great if most departments could dedicate two companies to RIT, but the reality is majority are lucky to staff one company and there are many depts relying upon 2 in 2 out.. The reality is that if RIT needs to deploy, the manpower needed will tend to exceed what is already allotted, yet the manpower on any given scene tends to be used up quickly on incident priorities, thus not leaving much for resources if a MAYDAY is declared.
So as I have said, and continue to say, the worst case scenario just happened, the RIT has to be a prepared as they can and having a handline should be part of that preparation and part of that cache. If that means the line is taken in by RIT to push back fire from a downed FF, so be it. If that line can be used to physically remove the FF, so be it. If that line can be used to stave off advancing fire and the downed FF can be given air, so be it.
I put out there what occurs here in the event of a MAYDAY anywhere in the county I reside and work in, that dispatch automatically sends the next alarm level assignment to the scene, this gets additional resources going. For my dept, RIT is an engine company of 4 personnel. It depends upon what, and where a MAYDAY occurs that will determine what to deploy with. Air is a given, rope is a given, hand tools are a given, a handline, saws, ladder, etc will depend upon the circumstances. If a line needs to be deployed, then 2 personnel may take that while two get air to the FF and size up the situation. Depending upon resources available and timing of the next alarm crews will determine who else gets assigned to help out.
I'm not saying there is only one way to accomplish RIT, quite the contrary, but I am saying that a handline should be part of a RIT cache. If there are not enough people to dedicate as a hose team for RIT, then RIT should have the option.
I will ask this then, if RIT should not be utilizing a handline, if needed due to the amount of fire, then what good are you doing for a downed FF if you can't get to them? Rush in and become a victim yourself? Wait around for another company to pick a line for you?
The fact remains that any RIT situation is going to be incident specific, there are going to be variables that probably haven't been accounted for. The best thing to do is train, have equipment, including a handline, have additional resources moving immediately upon a MAYDAY activation. Let the situation itself dictate the best access, tools, egress, and resources needed to mitigate the MAYDAY, but have the stuff there and ready to use if needed.
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I believe, I said in an earlier post that having the handline as an OPTION would seem okay to mem but the question remains if your 4 person RIT is taking in a handline to fight fire who is making the rescue? To me sending that crew in with a line means we need to IMMEDIATELY establish a second RIT that will find the down firefighter(s) and effect the rescue or begin the extrication of them if they are under debris from a collapse.
I firmly believe in calling for additional resources early in an incident, whether you use MABAS or good old fashioned mutual aid. As training officer of 2 neighboring POC FDs I am training them both in RIT and training them and equippping them the same. We have trained together and worked rescuing firefighters from the other FD in drills. Our plan is to call each other for RIT because of proximity the delay would be minimal but it allows us to utilize our firefighters for fire attack and search.
There are many times when the size of a structure makes having only one RIT ludicrous because there is no way they can deploy quick enough to a distant part of the building to make a real difference. So that may mean an extra alarm or mutual aod to handle RIT anyways.
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Don, the simple fact remains that anything is possible in the realms of RIT and there are just too many variables to account for that makes being as prepared as possible the best chance in a worst case scenario, that includes having a line for the RIT cache.
The other fact is that given any situation, the liklihood of a single RIT being assigned is prevalent with utilizing companies to the incident priorities. So if there are already companies operating on the incident and a MAYDAY is declared, where are your extra people coming from then? You are going to be in the exact same situation I am talking about and the reason that a handline should be part of the RIT cache. You will still be waiting for those resources just dispatched to arrive, you will still have companies committed to the fire operations (most likely sans one company now due to a MAYDAY), so the fact remains that there are variables that RIT will have to account for.
You seem very stuck on the notion that the RIT team itself must be the ones to make the rescue, but the reality is that it will still take more personnel than what is allotted for, we have numerous examples that teach us that. Given a situation, the best option that RIT may have is to keep fire from advancing on a fallen FF and getting them air while more resources can be deployed.
I agree with calling for help early and even having another company for RIT depending on size of the structure, but unless that is part of your protocol, then all you have are words here, not readiness. What I mean is that is one thing if IC calls for a greater alarm given the dispatch reports, such as a target hazard, building size, etc, etc, but that is a case by case call. In regards to having an additional RIT team, again, unless it is established in your dispatch protocol, then having an additional RIT will also vary on a case by case.
So given a room and contents fire in a single family home, where majority of depts will be dispatching a single alarm assignment, those resources will be utilized pretty quickly on incident priorities. If the protocol is to send a first alarm contingent that only accounts for a single RIT, then having more resources will be the call of the IC. The reality is that things can and do happen early in an incident that unless additional resources are requested right away or automatically dispatched, you will still find yourself in a situation as a single company RIT.
There are just way to many variables to account for and unless every single incident is automatically sent a multiple alarm contingent, the reality is that resources will get used up quickly on incident priorities. If a dept is able to have an actual RIT assignment and not just relying upon 2 in 2 out, they will need those personnel to be ready for a worst case scenario. Having a handline is another tool. Again don't get fixated to believe the line must be utilized by RIT, but it should be available.
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If your standard alarm doesn't allow for a RIT then some changes need to be made to that alarm assignment. Frankly, every additional alarms should bring an additional RIT. If you have more than 4 crews working inside a single RIT isn't capable of offering realistic protection.
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That doesn't get to the issue Don. If a standard alarm contigent includes a crew to be RIT, then the alarm assignment is already allowing for a RIT. The simple reality is that a MAYDAY can take place at any time, any alarm level, any condition. If that alarm contigent is comprised of a crew to attack, back up, vent/utility/truck work, search, and RIT, then your incident priorities will consume the manpower. Thus if a MAYDAY is declared, it is up to that single company RIT component to utilize whatever resources they have to better the situation of the MAYDAY.
So unless you are sending out enough companies to cover all the incident priorities, as well as, multiple RIT, or you are making every call a multiple alarm response, there is a good chance that you will be seeing a single company RIT team.
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