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Firefighter Psychological Evaluations
Hi all. I'm new around here and wanted to discuss the hiring process for firefighters, career and paid/non-paid positions. Most of the hiring process is basic but one part I've always had questions about is the psychological evaluation. I know around 40% of those applying for positions don't pass the psych but I'm wondering if anyone could share their experiences with it or provide suggestions, tips, etc. for those applying either for their first position or transferring.
Some specific questions people are asking are:
- What types of information should I NOT tell the psychiatrist/psychologist?
- What are they looking for when they give the MMPI-2 test? A specific profile?
- What things have people said during the psych interview that disqualified them?
From what I've read, sometimes if you say things like "My father left our family when I was young" or "My childhood wasn't the best and I had challenges" you can be DQ'd (though I don't think you should). I know it depends on the department but I think there are probably some general rules of thumb to follow for it.
Thanks all for the input!
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by John Gallagher on
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The best thing you can do is to keep it simple. Don't sit there and try to figure out the reason for a question. Simply answer it. Keep the answers non-judgemental. For example, instead of " my father left our family", you could say "my parents were divorced". Unless you are asked to, don't expand on an answer. One of the biggest problems people have with these tests is that they over think the questions. A simple question requires only a simple answer.
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Permalink Reply by John Crabbe on
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Personally I think these tests are a sham, plain and simple. They really don't factor in determining one's ability to do or not do the job. They don't determine if you have the mental capabilities to handle all the stress aspects of the job, and they don't do anything to determine if one is going to "snap" in the future. To me these are a scam set up by testing companies or evaluators, and for the majority of them, I would say those people making a determination of these test results have ZERO clue about the fire service, to be making such a determination.
As you can see, I'm a bit jaded when it comes to these test. I have taken several of them over the years when I was looking for a job and passed most of them. The one time I failed was after a job offer and I wanted the job, so I tried to pass. So I agree with John Gallagher's advice on keeping things simple. Just to give you another example of how skewed these tests are, we have a FF who was in a similar spot as me and had to do a psych test after the job offer was made. He failed the test and did not get hired. The following year, he applied again, was offered the job, passed the psych test and is on the job to this day and is a good FF. So I really question the purpose of such tests and feel they are just a waste of tax dollars.
I know that they aren't going away, so to answer the questions:
- What types of information should I NOT tell the psychiatrist/psychologist?
Depends on the questions they may ask. If they just say "just tell me about yourself" ask them what they would like to know. At least that way you can establish a question and answer situation as opposed to generalities. Ask them to expand on what they are asking if the question seems too general, like "tell me about your childhood". Again, what do they want to know? I would say don't hold back on information if specifically asked, but don't just volunteer it either.
- What are they looking for when they give the MMPI-2 test? A specific profile?
Not necessarily, the one thing that a psych test should be able to do is to show what type of person you are. What that means for the job, really isn't pertitnent, nor should it be for the job. I would say it would be illegal for a test to seek out only a certain type of person.....but then again many test results are only given to the employer, typically not the applicant.
One of the main things I have "heard" on many of the tests is consistency when it comes to questions. There are several types of written tests that can be used for a psych test. Some are timed and just sees how many problems you can answer in the time frame, not necessarily correctly. Other tests delve into the "Strongly Agree, Agree, neutral, Disagree, Strongly Disagree". On such a test it comes down to consistency along with speed. You can get questions like "I like to look at data" and 45 questions later, something like "I do not like to look at data", so it is about consistency in like worded questions.
- What things have people said during the psych interview that disqualified them?
Too difficult to say, because there usually are several components to a psych test that becomes a determining factor. As I mentioned, many times the test results are not released to the applicant, so it is difficult to say if it was one thing over an other etc. Again, I don't place much stock in these tests and I would love to ask any testing place that has failed an applicant about their experience in doing the job they are evaluating candidates for.
From what I've read, sometimes if you say things like "My father left our family when I was young" or "My childhood wasn't the best and I had challenges" you can be DQ'd (though I don't think you should).
Tough to say for sure if that was the determining factors, my gut would say it is not. Being honest is not a detriment, but again, if one has a question, they can ask for some clarification or ask the interviewer more specifics. In a psych eval, especially if never meeting the person, it is tough to know what they really would like to know, so ask them. You may get something like "Tell me about yourself".....well that is pretty general and spans a long time frame, so there is no harm in asking what they would like to know about you.
Like I mentioned before, many times these tests are about consistency. There are many types of written/personality tests that tend to accompany these evaluations. So just be honest. If the written tests show that your personality tends to be someone who is more socially shier, and more analytical, don't go into an interview and say you love talking to people (because it is part of the job) or that you are a quick decision maker, etc. Be honest and be consistent.
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Permalink Reply by Jason Van Order on
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I didnt have to talk to anyone but the officers on our dept. to get hired but i if i had to take the test i wouldnt tell them any more than i had to if that.
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Permalink Reply by Janice Moore on
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Thanks for the replies, all. It's been a while since I had to go through any hiring process so I know things have certainly changed a bit. I agree that this portion shouldn't be the determining factor in any hiring process (though it usually is). I feel the department should make the final decision, not an outsider that doesn't work with them every day. I understand they may feel like their hands are tied but I think they should at least review the reports and make the final decision within the department.
It's unfortunate that many well-qualified candidates get disqualified from the job simply because a psychologist/psychiatrist doesn't like what they say. I've heard from many others that it's best to be straight-forward with your answers and not to volunteer any information. I've also seen 1 or 2 "programs" that applicants can purchase to help them along with what to say/do for this part. It's sad that departments spend so much money and time for the psychological evaluation and almost half of the applicants don't make it through.
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Sorry, all. As I get questions I'm posting them...
Question: Do you think someone would be disqualified/turned down on the psychological evaluation if they've seen a therapist/psychologist previously? This would be for a reason other than for employment. Does it maybe depend on the reason they saw the therapist?
Thanks!
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Do you think someone would be disqualified/turned down on the psychological evaluation if they've seen a therapist/psychologist previously? This would be for a reason other than for employment.
No.
If that were the case, then there would be no reason for Employee Assistance Programs, Critical Incident Stress Debriefings, and so forth. Even if someone sought treatment, that is confidential information.
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Thank you for your response. I didn't think there was any way for them to "look up" that information; however, if it is directly asked of the applicant I know they would need to disclose it. This individual just has a lot of questions and doesn't understand why they would have been turned down on the psychological part. I tried to explain that there are so many reasons for being turned down for this part, from what I read, but it's much nicer to be able to have an answer for specific questions! I've read that so many are turned down on this portion of the hiring process due to very minor things so I'm trying to help prepare him for anything/everything. I really do appreciate everyone's help here!
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This individual just has a lot of questions and doesn't understand why they would have been turned down on the psychological part. I tried to explain that there are so many reasons for being turned down for this part, from what I read, but it's much nicer to be able to have an answer for specific questions!
It would be nicer to have specific answers as to what was a reason to fail such a test, but to get to that point is difficult to ascertain. The thing is that a psych test is part of a hiring aspect and costs are covered by the employer, many times this is a municipal entity, not just a dept. Those directly affected by such results (ie applicants) may not be able to get their own test results since this is a pre-employment thing and not a healthcare thing. Furthermore, you really don't see someone challenging results to dispute claims.
Even more is that when it comes to medical or psychological test disqualifiers, those results are limited to even the employer. So say one takes a physical and there is something that DQs the applicant, the contractor (usually) doing the test just goes off of parameters established by the employer, and if the applicant fails something, the employer doesn't know what it is. So when the emplyer calls back and gives the applicant the news they are DQ and no longer in the hiring process, most times the employer has no clue on what the applicant failed.
So really the only way, it seems to me at least, that one can find out such results is either ask the contractor performing the tests for a copy of test results. They may or may not give them out to the applicant. If they don't, there could be a possibility of legal involvement, which you typically don't see being pursued by an applicant. Also, since this is a pre-hire thing, typically there is very little interest in a union or employee assosiation pursuing such answers. Hiring is a management right and they can set whatever parameters they want.
In short, it is extremely difficult to get solid answers. I would suggest trying to contact the agency that performed the test to get results, but don't get hopes up on it. However, there are plenty of people who failed a test in the past only to pass it the next time around.
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This is understandable, considering most information like this is confidential. I guess all he can do is hope that he passes the next time. I think it's nice that most departments seem to allow applicants to reapply if they don't make it the first time.
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I think it's nice that most departments seem to allow applicants to reapply if they don't make it the first time.
They have to, if they don't the employer could be subject to discrimination lawsuits.
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Does anyone know of anything specific that has caused someone to fail a psych test? I've read so many stories but wanted something a little more fresh and personal. I've read that some fail the evaluation/interview part because of providing too much information regarding their family life (father not being around, troubles with siblings) while others have had too many inconsistencies on the written part of the evaluation. I actually took the written evaluation (MMPI-2) test myself recently just to see if I would "pass" at this point in my career and it actually said it found inconsistencies and a few areas showed that I was telling more than the truth. It's amazing for me to think that a person can be completely honest on something like that, yet the score says otherwise. This is just another reason I feel they shouldn't use the actual written test at least, but my small opinion doesn't matter enough to change that :)
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