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Concealed Carry and fires
Maybe an odd question, but the other day I was looking at sub-compact pistols and revolvers for concealed carry (yes, I have the necessary training and permit), and the thought crossed my mind... do you think there could be potential problems with concealed carry and working a fire? In theory, your PPE should protect your firearm from thermal exposure just like it does you, but we don't live in that neat little town called Theory.
And the more I think about it, I'm thinking this question more affects the volunteers than full time FF's; a full-time knows when he's on duty, and even if he carries while off-duty, once he gets to the station (or leaves home for the station), he can remove his holster. But for a volunteer, you never know when you're going to get paged. Do you leave the gun on you, slip it out of the holster and leave in your (locked) vehicle, drop it in the station when you grab your gear....
These are the kinds of things I think about on long drives... the "what-ifs" of life.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by John Crabbe on
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Being a career FF, it is dept policy that there are no weapons in the station, so the issue of having a FF carrying is moot. I would think that this should be the policy of every dept out there, career or volly, that a FF doesn't carry if working an incident. Leave a firearm in the trunk or locked in the vehicle etc, no reason to bring it inside with you.
I frankly could care less about the heat exposure aspect of the firearm, I am thinking moreso along the lines of a downed FF. I would hate to see a RIT crew or other FFs trying to extricate a downed FF who may be packing and inadvertently shoot someone during the course of the rescue. There is no reason for any FF to be carrying on a scene and personally I give a crap less about whatever shitstorm of "rights infringement" I may be advocating here. There really is no reason to be carrying while on calls, nor for a fire response. Think of the other FFs and leave the firearm locked up in a POV, or leave it at home.
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Permalink Reply by Corey Hanson on
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My department has SOPs that prohibit weapons on station property. However, we stand duty at the station. I have also ran at a home-response station when I had my CCW. There should be no reason you are gearing up with a hand gun. Who knows what may set it off. You dont know that its protected, you dont know something may not catch it and hit poor susie homemaker as she is getting out of her house next door and your pistol goes off as you're taking a knee. I receommend keeping it in your locked vehicle. Its nothing to slip your gun out of the holster before a call.
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Permalink Reply by Ryan Roberts on
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We all carry at my work. In fact the Chief carries an AR-15 in his command car. We are in a very remote town and back up is 45 minutes plus away. Nobody has ever needed it, but just in case. In Colorado, school shootings are a very serious topic. Now we have had this theater shooting. We wanted to have something more than harsh language in an intense situation
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Carry, of course. I hate it when the bad guy is the only one armed!! The safety's on the newer guns are pretty dang good. You should not have to worry about it going off accidentally. EMS not allowed to carry in va. FF will back them up. With all things, be smart!!
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Permalink Reply by Ron King (Fire Chief) on
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Our Town has a SOP policy about having a weapon on you while on the job. If a call comes up its so easy to remove your weapon before gearing up.
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First of all, the gun wont go off while fighting a fire if its in a proper holster and nobody pulls the trigger.
And hence the same reason a firearm shouldn't even be on a FF while working. In the event that said carrying FF goes down, how in the heck are other FFs going in to rescue him know if he was packing or not? Yep, they start adjusting the SCBA, use webbing, rope, lines. etc to free the FF and there is the potential to inadvertenly find the trigger and the gun goes off. Yeah, I disagree with even carrying a firearm when putting on PPE, let alone going in for FF.
In some states, legislation has already been created to protect license holders to allow carry AT THEIR PLACE OF EMPLOYMENT, during work hours, and make it illegal for empoyers to prevent that lawful carry.
For all the ANTI concealed carry out there, you have NO right to impose policies or restrictions that violate the legal rights of others.
There may be some states with such a law, but the reality is it is not a nationwide thing, neither is concealed carry. Having a policy stating that one isn't to carry firearms in the course of their duties comes down to a condition of employment. Just like smoking, there are many depts that have a no tobacco policy in place and that is a condition of employment. One doesn't need to be carrying as a FF.
Now I'm not anti-concealed carry, but the reality is concealed carry is not a legal right. If I'm not mistaken there is nothing in the 2nd Amendment mentioning a single thing about concealed carry. If I'm further not mistaken, I do believe in order for one to be able to conceal carry they have to have a permit. That means that concealed carry is a privelage and NOT a right. Just like a driver's license is a privelage and not a right. Imposing department policy or rules is not infringing on the rights.
IMAGINE the lawsuit if injury or loss of life occurs in such an attack and the legal licensee was PREVENTED from carrying to defend oneself...
I have yet to see any example where PREVENTION was proven. Hell every fire department out there should be able to claim some great prevention statisics everyday there isn't a fire. Yet we know fires still happen despite the best fire prevention programs and education. Should there be such lawsuits then saying that prevention wasn't adequate?
What I could imagine is the lawsuit for the dept or service where the employees got in a shootout and some innocent person was shot. Yes there have been times fire and EMS were shot at, so you pull back and let law enforcement go in. Unless you are acting in a law enforcement capacity, then you really have no reason to be carrying. Yes, say a FF or EMT is packing, is shot at, sure they could defend themselves and get away, yet the fact remains that someone else can end up shot and the likelihood of that ensuing in a lawsuit would be much more prevelant than trying to prove PREVENTION.
As I stated, I could care less about concealed carry and if people do carry. I don't think FF, nor EMTs should be carrying during the course of their duties. I am not looking to restrict guns and so forth, but instead moving beyond the same ol' rhetoric about concealed carry and rights. The fact remains that it is a privelage to conceal carry and a dept, business, entity and so forth can make whatever policy they want in regards to firearms as a condition of employment. Hell there is freedom of speach and the press, but we know there are people who have been disciplined and terminated for what they did on company time and in some cases off company time.
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Permalink Reply by Blake Mayo on
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In NY state by law all uniformed firefighters can carry due to issues in the 70's when firefighters where being confronted with life and death issues. My department does not have a written policy about this issue
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Blake, what does a law giving ability to carry have to do with the questions at hand??
do you think there could be potential problems with concealed carry and working a fire?
Do you leave the gun on you, slip it out of the holster and leave in your (locked) vehicle, drop it in the station when you grab your gear....
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Permalink Reply by Eric Yunginger on
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there is the potential to inadvertenly find the trigger and the gun goes off.
Every single one of my holsters, be it concealed carry or not, completely covers the trigger guard. It is physically impossible to pull the trigger without unholstering the gun. (My favorite holster also has positive lock retention - you have to push a lever to release the lock holding the firearm in the holster)If I'm further not mistaken, I do believe in order for one to be able to conceal carry they have to have a permit.
Depends on the state. There are several states that have passed "constitutional carry". No permit required. I believe Vermont is one, and possibly Montana.
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Every single one of my holsters, be it concealed carry or not, completely covers the trigger guard. It is physically impossible to pull the trigger without unholstering the gun. (My favorite holster also has positive lock retention - you have to push a lever to release the lock holding the firearm in the holster)
So now the question is solely about you? Can you speak for every single other person out there in regards to the question and can you say with absolute certainty that such a scenario of a firearm being discharged in the course of a RIT operation would never happen? You stated that these are the "what ifs" you think about on long drives, well did you seriously consider that "what if" of a downed FF?
Furthermore, what really would there be any reason to carry a firearm with you while firefighting? Other than the simple lapse in remembering to remove a firearm before putting on one's PPE, what is the rationale to even carry?
Depends on the state. There are several states that have passed "constitutional carry". No permit required. I believe Vermont is one, and possibly Montana.
Perhaps that may be the case, I frankly could care less about every state specific law. Yet I will venture to make an educated guess that the majority of states do not have such laws and most require some form of permit. My point there is that concealed carry is NOT a national issue and for the most part a state issue. Continuining to harp about concealed carry being a right is simply not the case.....unless stated in the couple state constitutions you mention.
However, the last part of my post also applies in regards to freedom of speech. There are limits on what can and can't be said in the course of one's duties and job parameters. There are limitations on freedoms and rights that can be placed by an employer as a condition of employment. Tobacco use is a common condition of employment that many employers have instilled and in some departments, even the off duty use of tobacco is forbidden.
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Permalink Reply by Ben Zoppa on
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I strip all of my pockets for knives, pens, my wallet, and cell phones prior to getting gear on. There is no reason to carry the extra weight, or to have crap in your pockets when you trip and fall. Having fallen directly onto the closed knife in my pocket before, I can tell you it hurts (I have a pretty bulky razor knife i keep on me because of work.) I have yet to be carrying during a call, but a gun in holster would not be even the least bit comfortable to fall on, especially if you had it in the small of the back. All my civilian gear goes into the locked truck before bunkers go on...
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