Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by William (Billy) Taylor on January 31, 2008 at 10:05pm

Hey Ric-ster,
I see it alot becouse some Voleenters dont have the training. here in Florida we had that going on until we started to train and help them get funding for wildland gear. The USFS and USFWLS have lots of grants for small departments that are close to GOV lands. check with the local USFS and Refudge doffice they can help. I work for the State doing wildland fire full time. and we help our locals with extra gear and training. I will get off the soapbox now.

Permalink Reply by John Carder on February 8, 2008 at 2:13pm

Part of what you're seeing is a result of different kinds of terrain, fire, fuels and fire fighting. There are parts of this country where leaf blowers are used to fight fires, by moving the ground clutter.

I live on a Colorado mountain top, so I laugh when I see that. Still, I know it works there. Obviously, PPE is important for everyone, but I've learned that local knowledge is critical. There are situations, in the mountains, that someone from Florida would think is a fine morning to mop up, and someone with experience in the region knows is going to be a big blowup by noon.

I wouldn't fight a fire without PPE, and I wouldn't recommend it. Still, I'm a bit slow to criticize someone working in conditions that I don't know. I've seen stories about fires in swampland, where dozers have sunk in the muck. If you've got standing water all around, you may not be quite as concerned.

Permalink Reply by Ric Smith on February 8, 2008 at 2:48pm

Oh don't get me wrong, If I mob somewhere other than my home area, I'll be quick to grab a local FF & keep him VERY close. But I believe my biggest issue was PPE. You see sooo many pictures of FF's out there in full bunkers or bunker pants & t-shirts or some other variation of that. I agree with you 100% on HOW to fight fire in certain regions (I've worked in a few) to include Colorado (Franktown FD). Here in Western Washington the hottest burn period doesn't start until 5 p.m. in SoCal it starts at about noon & in Hawaii.....well, pick a time (the temp & RH are pretty consistant in the dry areas).

Permalink Reply by Crockett on February 15, 2008 at 12:14am

Agreed, Ric, that PPE is essential (and wise) while fighting any type of fire. We do have many depts here in SWFL that just utilize structural gear. Why, I'll never know- Especially while trying to pull a booster line through a swamp, cypress head or palmettos LoL...
I think we were one of those small depts. that applied for a wildland gear grant; I've got a 'sweet' bigbird jumpsuit and some guys have two piece gear.
On occasion, during mop-up I've seen bunker pants w/undershirts and helmets. I personally feel that during brush/wildland mop-up this is fine, as long as your coat is kept nearby in case of a flare up.
And yes, Ric- I think this type of discussion is very healthy for our profession! Keep up the conversation, everybody...

Permalink Reply by Ric Smith on February 15, 2008 at 1:37am

Just some food for thought... Mop-up/overhaul is probably the worst time to reduce your PPE. Here's why: 1) People are not paying as much attention as they did during IA (LCES starts to degrade, no one is paying attention to the weather, ect...). 2) Equipment is starting to go back into service (hoselines are broken down, tools start getting put back on the trucks, & so on...). 3) Fatique (people are tired & want to get back to the station, need I say more...). 4) Crews are being released (redused staffing on scene). 5)Tempo is decreased... refer back to back to #'s 1-4. My point being this; we have too many incidents of FF's getting hurt or killed during overhaul. So, should we be reducing our PPE? Leave our shelters at the truck so we can just "Hit that small hotspot".... NOT UNTIL THE FIRE IS COMPLETELY OUT!!!! We need to be the leaders when it comes to safety (If not us...WHO?). Ok, I'm off my soapbox now... Stay safe, Ric

Permalink Reply by William (Billy) Taylor on February 15, 2008 at 7:00am

Whats up,
I agree with what everyone is saying. I think and have seen even FED and State guys doing this. Its just mop-up why wear eveything. Its hot and I can't move around as easy. then it goes to hell and you are caught short. I will be thinking on this all season as a leader of other firefighters and working on Safety Officer Quals. I hope we can get the word out to those that are just getting in to this that safety is everyones job.

Permalink Reply by Wayne on March 6, 2008 at 3:51pm

Great topic for discussion Ric-ster. I'm a volunteer firefighter in the Mid-West and i couldn't agree more with you. most all midwest departments either fight wildland fires in their bunkers or plain clothes. There are a couple reasons for this. One issue is the fact that most firefighters in the mid-west are only trained for structural firefighting. Wildfires fought by firefighters in the mid-west are also mostly either grass fires with 1-2 foot flame lengths fought from a grass truck with pump and roll capabilities or they are woods fires of less than an acre in vegetation much different than out west. The fires just aren't as intense. Is that an excuse for improper ppe? absolutely not, but when firefighters fight enough fires like this, they begin underestimate the dangers involved with wildland fires. Another issue is funding. Volunteer departments either don't have the available funds or are simply not willing to fork out money for shelters and proper ppe. Last year, I became a seasonal, type II firefighter for the USFS and at our last refresher had a long discussion on at least trying to give local fire departments some proper training in wildland fire fighting. Because every now and then the midwest IS plagued with some decent intensity fires. Hopefully this is of SOME help to answering your question ric-ster. Most people in the mid-west just do not fully appreciate the danger of wildfires because most have not witnessed what one can do at its worst.

Permalink Reply by Dennis Sharp on April 26, 2008 at 1:33pm

It all depends on the conditon of the fire and weather here in my area. Most generally we wear bunker pants and boots and civilian pants and boots. wearing bunkers hinders your performance because you can't move as well and you tire out faster. When it's hot some of use fight in shorts. Yeah, Yeah, your thinking that's the most idiotic thing I've ever heard. But it is much more effective wearing these than bunkers. I've fought a good many brush, grass, and woods fires in shorts and althogh I've come out black as charcoal, I was unharmed, other than scapes and scatches on my legs. So if you have a problem with firefighters who don't wear bunkers then maybe you should give it a try. Or look at their SOPs and then go from there.

Permalink Reply by Ric Smith on April 26, 2008 at 2:07pm

Hi Dennis, well first of all... my problem isn't with people who DON'T wear bunkers on brush fires... it's with people who DO. My other issue is that crews typically don't have a fire shelter either (this is your most basic piece of survival equipment you can carry & must have!). Second, as far as fighting fires in shorts..... WHAT ARE YOU THINKING!!!!!! Where does it state it in "ANY" NFPA, NWCG, or SOP/SOG document that it is OK to where shorts (as PPE) while combating any type of fire?!?!? Please respond.... I got to hear this

Permalink Reply by John Carder on April 26, 2008 at 7:53pm

What is your area?

I can't imagine fighting a fire w/o my nomex, shelter, etc.

Permalink Reply by John Waltenbaugh on June 2, 2008 at 12:22am

I have fought wildland in PA and in Colorado back east I thought it was just the way things were done untill I got onto a wardens crew and we actually got gear, before that I I saw firefighters in bunkers or at least coats and day boots out her ein colorado it was that way when I first got here too. , when the big fires started in the late 90's . Now most departmetns even the small ones that dont have alot of money have PPE except for the ones that refuse to come into the last century let alone this one, Ihave been on fires last year and this and witnessed people (I will not call them firefighters) fighting fire in full Bunkers , hood included in 90-100 degree temps and on hte same fire I witnessed a Company officer in Croc's (yes the plastic shoes) on an active fire . When you try to get these people off the fire seen you get dont worry about it thats the way they do it and nothing gets done, what we end up with is a department that does nothing and a command structure that does little to protect the firefighters under it

Permalink Reply by shadow walker on July 12, 2008 at 8:40am

We are deffinatly supposed to wear our shelters here in the east. I work in the Tennessee Division of Forestry. And while I wont say that you will NEVER see me without my shelter you would be hard press o find me without it. Typically the reason you see those wihout them are the fact that the fires here are as a general rule not as intense and they feel as if they could find better ways to escape the danger. I know this is a foolish idea but that is thier feelings. and I assure you that if a member of the TN forestry is caught wihout one they re punished severily. And even I have never seen a volunteer here wear one. Doubt most have ever seen one.

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