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Shane Ray's "Rethinking Volunteer Firefighter Certification" article will make some waves...
The new superintendant of the South Carolina Fire Academy asks some tough question and offers some creative solutions to the problem of volunteer firefighter certification and just what that should mean.
Here's the article: http://www.firefighternation.com/article/training-0/rethinking-volu...
It is thought-provoking, to say the least. What do you guys think?
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Ben Waller on
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How does it continue to escape you that what your fire departments do are not pertinent to how others may choose to do it, and they certainly are not the standard by which all other fire departments should be judged?
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There is at least one glaring problem with that stance. You are making this about the individual firefighter, when the issue is really about the community's ability to protect itself at a level of its choosing.
Obtaining any interior FF certification is not necessarily about individual desire, motivation, or ability. As stated elsewhere in this thread, in states that require OSHA-compliant firefighter physicals prior to SCBA fit testing some of those FDs simply cannot comply with that requirement. This is sometimes due to the inability for the FD to pay for some members' physicals, the FD's inability to pay for physicals for some members but not all, or even no physician that can give compliant physicals.
"I feel that it is very necessary to learn everything about the job you are doing so in the event you are called upon to do it, you can effectively step up and have an inkling of what you are doing." That is exactly the point in having an Exterior Firefighter certification. The people who want that certification are already doing the exterior job, and having the certification is part of learning more about effectively doing all parts of THAT job. This comes back to Chief Ray's "commensurate with your duties" point. Interior firefighting is not part of an exterior firefighter's job. Calling for people who either can't or who don't want to be interior firefighters to get certified for something that they either won't or can't do isn't teaching them more about their job - it's teaching them more about someone else's job.
"There is no reason not to train to the FFI Certification and beyond." Sure there is...you said it yourself... "Because volunteers are not lined up around the corner to enlist and because our staffing has become shorter."
Given that fact, why would anyone want to deny membership to people who are ready, willing, and able to contribute due to an injury that prevents them from passing a firefighter physical or their fire department's financial inability to fund those physicals, or for that matter, from doing outside jobs to free up those who have the ability to work on the interior?
Your Mayweather anology is flawed. The point of having an Exterior Fighter certification is to not only teach the abilities of that position, but to teach its limitations. That will specifically keep exterior firefighters out of the ring, so they have no need to be concerned about what Mayweather does inside it.
"You are doing nothing more than taking valuable tools away from them and turning yourself into a tool at the same time."
That's B.S. What is under discussion is EXACTLY giving Exterior Firefighters more training and certifying them in what they are already doing.
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Permalink Reply by Bobby King on
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This is not a pissing for distance contest sir.
Why on Earth would you want somebody that is not physically or mentally unprepared or unfit to do the job? That vehicle that the D/O who is 70+ is driving is expensive and B the cost of the apparatus is nothing compared to the cost of the Mans life driving it or the citizens life that may depend on that vehicle showing up.
God forbid an " Exterior Firefighter" has to pack up because the situation has just turned for the worst. If he is not trained for it then he is nothing more than a lawn ornament.
Throwing ladders, OVM, Forceable entry these are small parts of the big picture that is being a Firefighter.
And what is B.S. is trying to get out of Training your firefighters SHOULD be doing in the first place.
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"This is not a pissing for distance contest sir."
Bobby, No, it isn't. It's a discussion. I never said nor thought it was a contest of any kind. Why in the world would you even bring that up?
Were you aware that the post to which you replied was directed at Don C.? Sometimes it's difficult to tell when there are several replies, given the FFN thread structure.
Your "70+ driver" point is a straw man logical fallacy. I did not mention age as a factor. You're responding as if I said something that I clearly did not. Are you aware that the NFPA firefighter 1582 physical standard is much more restrictive than even the DOT CDL driver physical standard? Are you aware that there are illnesses and specific injuries that do not preclude a driver from holding a CDL that do preclude that person from being an interior firefighter? Are you also aware that the NFPA 1582 standard applies to INTERIOR firefighting, and that it does not specifically apply to exterior firefighting or driving?
An Exterior Firefighter will NEVER "pack up", as interior operations are outside the scope of what an Exterior Firefighter does. Ditto for your claim that an exterior firefighter is "nothing more than a lawn ornament". There are many outside tasks that exterior-only firefighters can do in addition to the ladders, forcible entry, and OV that you mentioned...stretching lines, catching hydrants, mobile water supply, the exterior half of Transitional Attack, exterior Division officers...the list goes on. Every one of those things will free additional interior firefighters for interior ops in departments that have limited interior-qualfied manpower.
And, as I've already stated, an Exterior Firefighter certification IS the training that exterior firefighters should be doing in the first place.
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Permalink Reply by Don Catenacci on
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Ben,
All I hear when you type is Blah, Blah, Blah. You are as big a hypocrite as Bobby. For just like him you advocate this Exterior standard, BUT the thin that makes you an even bigger hypocrite is you would never accept that at your FD. If it is such a good idea why can't it work where you are a fire fighter? OH, THAT'S RIGHT, your FD actually expect people to be firefighters, not Exterior firefighters. Too bad your strongest supporter BAILED on your Exterior firefighter cert when it was suggested to make it mandatory...What an absolute joke, back somehting but then make it completely impotent.
If you don't believe there are VFDs out there with 70 year old drivers you surely do not even belong in this conversation.
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{Ben picks himself up off the floor after extended LMAO}
The use of namecalling and mischaracterizations is indicative of being unable to debate the facts.
The use of logical fallacies in debate is indicative that the person who does so is unwilling or unable to debate without inserting irrelevancies into the debate.
"All I hear when you type is Blah, Blah, Blah." An inability to discern indicates a defective receiver, not a defective transmitter.
"You are as big a hypocrite as Bobby." That is silly, inaccurate, and will be debunked below.
"For just like him you advocate this Exterior standard, BUT the thin that makes you an even bigger hypocrite is you would never accept that at your FD." That is a straw man logical fallacy, and it is also delusional, since what I advocated is an Exterior Firefighter standard for EXTERIOR FIREFIGHTERS. My fully-career department has enough applicants and enough resources to use Firefighter II as our standard. That doesn't make me so blind as to think that every volunteer fire department has either that kind of applicant pool or resources. Apparently my lack of blindness is not universal here.
"Delusion...A false belief strongly held in spite of invalidating evidence..." Source: the Free Online Dictionary
You continue to claim that I said something I did not. That makes the claim delusional, by definition.
"If it is such a good idea why can't it work where you are a fire fighter?"
What a silly question that was. That question assumes that every FD's circumstances are the same. The real world isn't like that. It's a good idea for places that already have certified exterior firefighters. The fact that my fire department requires a more advanced certification has nothing to do with what the appropriate certification for every other firefighter might be.
"OH, THAT'S RIGHT, your FD actually expect people to be firefighters, not Exterior firefighters." That was confused and inaccurate, since by definition, exterior firefighters ARE firefighters. My FD expects its members to be certified to a higher level than what is under discussion for other FDs that don't have the resources to do the same.
"Too bad your strongest supporter BAILED on your Exterior firefighter cert when it was suggested to make it mandatory...What an absolute joke, back somehting but then make it completely impotent." That was even more confused that some of the other stuff you've posted here. What someone else posts has no bearing on my point, right, wrong, different, or indifferent. What someone else believes about mandatory exterior firefighter certification also has no bearing on my post, since my point is mine and mine alone. As for a complete joke, that definition best fits a post that shows the inability to discern that some certifications are optional, and that different states have different requirements about what certifications are optional and which ones are mandatory.
"If you don't believe there are VFDs out there with 70 year old drivers you surely do not even belong in this conversation." The fact that you can repeat someone else's straw man logical fallacy in no way means that I have that belief. It does mean that the person who posted the logical fallacy is putting words in my mouth, as you just did. Nowhere did I say that I don't believe that drivers of ANY age are out there. I didn't mention age at all. Someone else injected age into the conversation and spun it as if I had said it. So did you. That makes any claim you make based on putting words in my mouth just so much bunk....thus my use of the term "debunked" above.
My point was about having exterior firefighters who function solely as drivers and the fact that the CDL medical clearance process is simpler than the NFPA 1582 process, allows participants with medical conditions that prevent one from passing the 1582 firefighter physical. I didn't discuss age AT ALL. The fact that you and at least one other poster act as if I had is simply putting words in my mouth. It's also a silly diversion from what I actually said.
Shock me Once - just once - respond factually, logically and to what I actually say. Shock me again by demonstrating the ability to discern that your "one size fits all" approach to firefighter certification will not work in places that don't have the manpower or resources to do it your way.
Calling someone a hypocrite in the absence of factual, logical responses to what is actually said is demonstrative of a baseless argument.
Namecalling in the absence of being able to respond to what is actually said is childish and immature.
Bottom line - an inability to understand that there are many variables on your part does not create hypocrisy on someone else's part. Claiming that it does demonstrates a very, very confused state on the part of the one making that false claim.
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Permalink Reply by Bob Callahan on
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And in great part the reason I "bailed" ion mandatory certification for exterior members is the simple fact that here in LA, the state agency responsible for delivering fire service training has nowhere close to the resources to deliver a program like this.
They don't have the fixed facilitates. They don't have the budget for the number of regional instructors that would be required to go out and deliver the training and deliver practicals. And likely they wouldn't have the resources to at this moment deliver even a train-the-trainer program statewide to give every department, or at least every few departments a certified trainer. Even idf they allowed Instructor I's to deliver the program, there are likely many, many VFDs that don't even have somebody certified to that level to deliver the program.
And that's just the Exterior certification. There would be no way in hell that they even are in the ballpark in terms of resources to deliver on a mandatory FFI certification.
So how who likely be left out? The most rural VFDs. The VFDs the could not afford to pay for the program as it is highly unlikely that there would be any state funding going to LSU FETI to deliver on the mandate and they would have to pay for the classes. The most remote VFDs. There are many, many rural VFDs that would fall through the cracks.
And yes, not only is that the reality here but I would be more than willing to bet that it is the case in many other states. If you could walk up to me today and guarantee that the program would be fully funded, I would probably say OK, but you can't do that, and I know that the funding and political realities of the state, and the current relationship of LSU-FETI and the fire service, as well as the legislature (there have been some events over the past year or so) simply would not allow that to happen.
Are there small combo and VFDs that need this? No. In the southern part of the state, especially in the larger communities, recruitment and retention is not the issue that it is in the far more rural central and northern parts of the state.Yes, there are departments in the southern part of the state that would need this, but the simple fact is they are much closer to LSU's main facility at Baton Rouge and also a much bigger blip on LSU's radar than northern LA, so they would likely get they resources they need in terms of classes to make the program work much sooner.
And yes, there are other reasons, including the effect that this mandate would have on rural staffing in my state, and my general disagreement hat somehow FFI constitutes a rural skill set for rural firefighters,but the simple fact that the current training model in this state would simply not have and would not be given the resources to deliver on such a mandate is huge.
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The variables are simply an accepting of excuses to validate a level of fire protection that is inadequate and a falsehood to those they protect. Those citizens expect a level of protection, despite what you or Bobby says, that includes going inside to save not only their property but their lives, as well as the lives of their loved ones. You both can say whatever you want to defend otherwise but it simply is not true.
By the way, please try and weave your favorite catch phrase into your reply. I love seeing you use straw man almost every time you post.
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Bobby King ....
And here is the crux issue to many. The title. The hallowed title of "Firefighter". And so many folks being so concerned with protecting what they see as some god-holy title of .. well, I'm not sure what.
It's a damned title. And that all that it is.
You see firefighting as "the job". All encompassing requiring standards that many folks in a rural community simply cannot meet. Dividing the job into specific areas of training allows the service to take members that may be perfectly fit and capable of performing in one area but not fit or capable of performing interior operations.
I see "Firefighter" as 4 separate jobs on in the volunteer service, each of which requires their own level of training and utilized to thier own training level.;
Support: Non- combat role that includes driver/pump operator, water supply, rehab, medical monitoring, lighting and such. Can also include some command positions such as IC, Operations, water supply officer, staging and rehab officer as well as exterior safety or command-post level safety officer
Exterior Firefighter: Exterior combat role that can be trained to perform laddering, vertical and horizontal ventilation, exterior fire attack and such. members have the option of being trained on SCBA for vehicle fire attack, roof operations as such but not SCBA trained for interior operations.
Interior Forefighter: Trained for interior operations.
EMS & Rescue Specific Personnel: Members of the department who do not want to be involved in firefighting but may want to be involved in vehicle extrication, technical rescue operations including water, ice, confined space, rope, cave, etc or may just want to run EMS and assigned to medical monitoring and rehab on fire operations.
The training required in each of these areas simply justifies that in the volunteer world, the "job" can easily be broken down into several areas. There have been hundreds (if not more) VFDs nationwide that have successfully used this model.
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Bobby,
If you think the way we fund fire training in Wisconsin just happened because people are really nice you would be wrong. It took effort and lobbying to get that fundin through, not excuses and hand wringing. Get up, get organized and make it happen in Louisiana.
I know you won't though, that takes work and would demand you reliquish your sacred total control of training in your FD.
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Donnie boy,
As expected, you failed to shock me with accurate comments.
Your claim that "...it simply is not true." is complete B.S. It simply does not withstand the most basic factual analysis.
I've challenged you several times to show some evidence for your outlandish claims here, and as usual, all you have is your unsupported and unsupportable personal opinion, backed up with nothing but complaints about how many times the gaps in your logic are pointed out.
You have no idea what the citizens under discussion expect, since you don't know a single one of them. When you claim to know something that you can't possibly know, that's just more of your B.S.
So now we're supposed to expect to believe that someone who has demonstrated confusion between standards and certification, someone who based his point on mischaracterizations and faulty attempts at logic, and who repeatedly tries to put words in other people's mouths can now read the minds of people that you don't even know?
Outstanding! Exciting! Wonderful! Please let us in on your little secret? How do you do it? Does bashing the idea of an Exterior Firefighter certification somehow give you the magic power to read the minds of strangers in other states?
Surely we can now expect you to write the NFPA standard for THAT.
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I also noticed that you ducked the issue of prisoner firefighters, since they exist, and their pokes giant holes in your claims about relative levels of dedication required to be interior firefighters.
Is it painful that the real world doesn't fit into that artificial construct you'd like to see apply to everyone?
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