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Shane Ray's "Rethinking Volunteer Firefighter Certification" article will make some waves...
The new superintendant of the South Carolina Fire Academy asks some tough question and offers some creative solutions to the problem of volunteer firefighter certification and just what that should mean.
Here's the article: http://www.firefighternation.com/article/training-0/rethinking-volu...
It is thought-provoking, to say the least. What do you guys think?
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Bob Callahan on
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Ben ........
He just can't get the idea through his head, or doesn't want to accept the idea, that exterior personnel are firefighters in every sense, and especially in small rural department with limited interior personnel, have the exact same value as interior personnel. And in the departments that operate in are accepted and recognized as such.
I highly doubt he will ever accept that concept.
Bottom line is most rural firefighters fully understand the significant value and the need for exterior firefighters, and understand the value that an exterior certification would have as it would give them a professional certification to obtain. In the end, that is really all that matters.
Maybe is his world, he can keep a roster of interior qualified members, but in many if not most rural communities nationwide, that simply isn't, and never will be as much as we want it to be, the case. So we look at reality and see what we can do to improve the situation with the resources at hand, and IMO, an formal exterior firefighter training cirriculum and certification combined with fire departments being allowed to develop their own training programs for full duty personnel based on their needs, operations and resources as compared to be shackled to the generic and often non-relevant requirements for FFI are, in the long run, a excellent way to proceed.
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Don ..................
There is a difference between want and can't.
Most exterior firefighters I know would very much like to be interior, but recognize they can't either because of a physical or mental issue, age or time restraints that prevent them from being trained or operating as such.
This is especially true with older members who were once interior.
You still have a problem recognizing the difference, don't you?
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Permalink Reply by Don Catenacci on
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A lot of kids want to be astronauts too. When they can't or don't meet the standards we don't make them exterior astronauts.
Just because you want something doesn't mean it always happens.
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So even though, as an example, they are perfectly capable of throwing ladders, performing forcible entry and other exterior firefighting tasks, but simply can't wear an SCBA mask, we say that they have no value on the fireground and tell them to get out of the way of the big, real interior firefighters?
Or maybe they can wear a mask and have no problems operating on a roof and performing ventilation or being the nozzle guy on a vehicle fire attack, but maybe for some reason, they simply can't bring themselves to operate interior either because they can't deal with the enclosed enviroment of maybe have a nagging injury they feel they could aggravate (and yes, I have known several excellent firefighters who felt that way, in great part due to the nagging injury issue). Again, do you honestly feel that they should just be shued away because they choose not to operate interior?
If your answer is a yes, I simply do not and never will understand. It's almost like this fireman thing is some type of exclusive club, and unless you are "tough enough" to do it all, you don't think people should belong. Honestly, I don't get it.
Again, I have never been in a situation where too much trained help on the fireground is a problem, and yes, that includes trained personnel who can't mask up or maybe can mask up and perform some aggressive fire operations but simply choose not to be interior.
Again, I just don't get it.
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We are also talking about a career with a very finite number of "employees" - astronauts - vs a volunteer department with in theory, an unlimited number of positions. Yes, there are budgetary limitations in terms of PPE and radios/pagers, so there may be almost on the exterior members because of that, but it is certainly no the same situation as the space program, or a career fire department, where the number of positions are finite.
Exterior firefighters on a VFD vs.astronauts, of for that matter, career fire departnments, are not comparable.
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Permalink Reply by Patti Walz on
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We just recently had mutual assistance from a department where a majority of the fire fighters are exterior only. The help that we received from them was invaluable as it freed up those who are qualified to do interior to perform the tasks that needed to be done inside the house. No lives were lost that day.
I live in a very rural area where sometimes the closest water source it 12 miles down the road. Water shuttles are essential in our area. The IC knew the limitations of those coming to our aid and was able to adjust his plan of attack accordingly.
Just because they were exterior only did not make their service and support any less than those who could do interior.
Do I think that everyone should be trained to FF1? Yes. I think it is important that anyone who signs on understands the role and responsibilities involved. The choice to be exterior only or interior only should be between the individual and the Chief.
Do I think that for those who do not want to do interior have training and certifications for exterior only work? Yes, how else can you continue to improve your skills and continue to be an asset to the department that you serve.
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I know the scope of my training and so do the EMT's that I ride with when I do ride along. I am working towards eventually going back to school for my basic training so that I can be even more of an asset to my department and my community. I do what ever it is that my commanding officer tells me to do so long as it is within the scope of my training and causes no harm to myself or others. Yes sometimes that means I have to stand back, but while doing so I am learning and at the end of the call I question my officer so that I can be better informed.
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We have a very similiar situation in my volunteer department.
Currently we have about 13-14 active personnel with a daytime response of 2-6 (we have several full-time firefighters that work the same shift, so it very much depends on the day) and 7-10 at night.
Most of our personnel are interior, though most of the line personnel are very inexperienced with a very limited number of actual incidents,
Most of our closest mutual aid in the parish are departments with primarily exterior-only personnel. The exception to that is the neighboring small city that will give us all of their 5 on-duty personnel and my neighboring combo department (full-time job) that is interior heavy. We request those departments for interior manpower.
We will request the other departments for tanker assistance and exterior help. We are very aware of what they can and can't do, and use them in that capacity.
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Bobby,
As I have stated many, many times, I don't give a tinkers damn what you do in Bossier Parish, or Ben Waller does in his FD, or FF Walz in his FD, or Oldman in his FD. My issue comes in when you try to push YOUR agenda of less qualified firefighters on the rest of us as an acceptable alternative.
I have stated repeatedly that while both of my POC FDs have people that gravitate to ladders, setting up the fan, pump operator, tanker driver, scba bottle refilling, or rehab, they are trained to the state standard that allows them to work interior, and our training mantains those skills. So even if they regularly do not go interior their skill set is maintained incase they have to.
So it isn't that I believe that people can't gravitate to those jobs and serve a vital purpose, it is simply that when the shit hits the fan and guys are down inside I want to know there is sufficient staffing outside to effect a realistic rescue attempt. 2 in 2 out is a joke for any serious RIT situation, and if you teach RIT as you say you do, even you know that is true. It can take up to 8 or more FFs to do a RIT operation to rescue a trapped or downed firefighter. Where are those extra people coming from? Not your exterior only guys.
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I never said that any fire department had to accept the certification of Exterior Firefighter. As a department, you would have the option of allowing people to test for it, or even send them to a class. As an example, my combo department will not pay for personnel to attend Fire Investigator or pay for the testing as the command staff feels that it's an unnecessary cert for our members as we use the State Fire Marshal's Office to investigate any significant, fatal or suspicious fire.
This would be for the thousands of departments that would want their members to be certified as such. If you, or any other department doesn't like the idea, simply do not allow your members to test out. Don't give them that option.
The fact is we are talking about two different types of people ..... you are talking about that that had to time and/or physical ability to complete FFI, but choose not to go interior if possible. I am talking about members that simply cannot, or choose not to operate interior and likely would not be able to complete the SCBA and/or interior fire attack components of a FFI class, or do not wish to commit the time to Awareness, Operations (both required to take FFI) and the FFI class.
I can see your point to a limited extent,but, I can't agree. If I have personnel in a mayday situation, the last folks I want to count on to make a rescue or put in that situation are the members that prefer not to be interior and tend to other functions a I would much rather have exterior folks on scene with a rapid intervention team from another department composed of folks who regularly make entry in that position.
I guess I prefer to see folks that have problems or can't operate interior work specifically on what they can do, and not force them into training on or doing something they may have a problem doing. let the folks that can or want to go interior, go interior. train the folks that have to or want to stay exterior, stay exterior. If you need to count on them I would say that you may have to think a little more proactively about calling mutual aid for a dedicated RIT team on the initial page out.
You say we shouldn't dictate what you do. Fine. Don't let them test and don't accept that cert operationally. But on the other hand, don't be insistent that all the other departments that would benefit by allowing them to have certified exterior firefighters work without not have that option.
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Permalink Reply by Ben Waller on
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Don,
What an awesome analogy. You did great witih that one.
You're exactly right. Not everyone can be an astronaut. In fact, most of NASA's employees are NOT astronauts, and they don't go into outer space. NASA has hundreds of employees for every one of the few dozen astronauts they have.
NASA doesn't use astronauts to fuel their rockets, build the satellites the rockets launch, to build the launch gantries, and they didn't use them to build the space shuttle fleet or any of their previous manned spacecraft projects. They used the exact equivalent of "exterior astronauts" - people that did things the astronauts could have done, but they reserved their astronauts to enter the IDLH atmosphere - outer space.
Fire departments with a mix of interior and exterior firefighters do EXACTLY the same thing, with one exception. NASA doesn't have RIT.
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Don, you are doing exactly the same thing when you try to push your FF1 standard off on those of us whose minimum standard is FF 2.
The only difference between an exterior FF and a FF 1 is a difference of degree, since FF II is required to actually meet all of the NFPA 1001 Firefighter Professional Qualifications.
You're still insisting on something that isn't real. The places that need certified exterior firefighters DO NOT HAVE THE MANPOWER to handle a serious RIT situation on their own without using exterior firefighters. They need the exterior firefighters to take care of outside tasks to free up enough interior firefighters to actually staff RIT.
If they don't have enough on their own, then they'll call mutual aid like anyone else. Why is this concept so hard for you to understand. Your insistence that everyone do it your way is not going to change the reality that the places under discussion don't have - and will likely never have - the resources to do it your way.
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