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Shane Ray's "Rethinking Volunteer Firefighter Certification" article will make some waves...
The new superintendant of the South Carolina Fire Academy asks some tough question and offers some creative solutions to the problem of volunteer firefighter certification and just what that should mean.
Here's the article: http://www.firefighternation.com/article/training-0/rethinking-volu...
It is thought-provoking, to say the least. What do you guys think?
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Ben Waller on
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Well said and spot on.
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And that's the way to do it. Don't let anyone who doesn't know your department's situation talk you out of it.
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...and given that closing the department is not usually the most beneficial thing for the community, those fire departments in question are going to get firefighters certified to do exactly what they are doing now, but without the certification.
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Since when is asking questions "combative"?
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Permalink Reply by Don Catenacci on
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Again Bobby,
I don't give a damn what YOUR FD does. My point is a nationally accepted watered down standard will NEVER gain my support.
Why would you push for exterior firefighter certification when you have insisted over and over again on FH.com that ANY national standard is not realistic because it doesn't take into acount location specific issues? This is where you whole national stadard for exterior firefighters falls apart. If you in fact support that standard why won't you support a NATIONAL standard for Interior certified firefighters? Because to support exterior national certification standards while arguing against Interior certification standards, FF1/FF2 is the ultimate in hypocrisy.
You are going to have to admit, whether you want to or not, that ANY National Standard will have elements that may not directly, or immediatley, relate to your local situation, including an exterior standard. For example, let's say your FD NEVER vertically ventilates, and mine never uses PPV. Would you want an exterior standard that didn't teach vertical ventilation because you don't use it, and would I want one that didn't teach PPv because mine never used it? Where is the NATIONAL STANDARD then? (by the way before you, or someone else, pisses themselves over my example, all the FDs I am on use vertical venting, PPV, horizontal natura, negative pressure ventilation, as well as hydraulic venting, depending on the circumstances)
The reality is any standard, whether state or national removes local control over the content of what makes up the requirements to meet that standard. If you want the standard you will have to acquiesce to that simple fact.
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Permalink Reply by John Crabbe on
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you are talking about that that had to time and/or physical ability to complete FFI, but choose not to go interior if possible. I am talking about members that simply cannot, or choose not to operate interior and likely would not be able to complete the SCBA and/or interior fire attack components of a FFI class, or do not wish to commit the time to Awareness, Operations (both required to take FFI) and the FFI class.
I do believe Don, while perhaps advocating more for FF1, has also stated the same thing as me that for a person to be FF qualified even to volly standards in this state requires interior qualification. That cert is called Entry Level FF, is a 60 hour class and is the bare bones minimum. I also believe Don, as well as I, have both stated what happens later is up to an individual dept, but at least EVERYONE is able to be utilized interior if the need arises. A 60 hour class is not too damn tough to require, having people meeting that at least shows that anyone operating on the fireground is capable of any operation of a FF. 60 hours is not tough to obtain, it is not expensive to obtain and quite frankly, if difficulty and expensive are the only aspects you are hiding behind, that is a shame.
As for those who choose not to commit to even such a basic cert...well then they shouldn't be on the damn fireground, now should they?
If I have personnel in a mayday situation, the last folks I want to count on to make a rescue or put in that situation are the members that prefer not to be interior and tend to other functions a I would much rather have exterior folks on scene with a rapid intervention team from another department composed of folks who regularly make entry in that position
I will conceed this as a valid point, but let's also look at the realities that another dept for RIT operations may not be on scene and ready in the event of a MAYDAY situation. So what have you then? Are you saying those interior FFs are expendable since you have a bunch of non-hacking exterior only FFs available? Who mans a backup line? Who supports a rescue op? Face Bob, you are the one who early on touted your six interior FFs with 10 exterior FFs. I asked you then......to which I received no reply....and I ask you now.....are you saying these interior FFs are now expendable? If you are relying on another dept for RIT, then why in the hell would you make the, even if hypothetical, comments you did?
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Not everyone can be an astronaut. In fact, most of NASA's employees are NOT astronauts, and they don't go into outer space. NASA has hundreds of employees for every one of the few dozen astronauts they have.
Yep, and those supporting roles in NASA are not ASTRONAUTS, mission specialists, mechanics, IT, R&D, engineers, etc, etc, etc. While there may be numerous support roles for a space mission, the bottom line is those up there doing the job are all qualified to the same basic level as astronaut.
Of course there is a larger team at hand for NASA...hell the same could be said for the fire service, from inspections, to prevention, to public education, to plan review, to even mechanics.........yet when it comes down to doing the "mission" it is only those who are qualified to the minimum standard of astronaut who are performing the job.
So without continiung delving into similies and metaphors, when it comes down to the fire scene, there is no reason that a simplistic basic standard, which includes SCBA training and be able to operate interior, should not be a minimilistic standard. And yes, hiding behind time committment, physical ability, and even money is a damn excuse.....not a reason.
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You missed one very important point, John.
Less than half of NASA's astronauts have been into outer space even once. The "excuses" range from money to physical issues.
A specific example is Deke Slayton. He NEVER went into outer space due to a heart murmer. Yet, NASA has always classified him as an astronaut.
"...there is no reason that a simplistic basic standard, which includes SCBA training and be able to operate interior, should not be a minimilistic standard. And yes, hiding behind time committment, physical ability, and even money is a damn excuse.....not a reason."
Do you keep repeating that "excuse" claim in the vain hope that if you chant it enough, someone will actually believe it? You can claim "excuse" as much as you wish, but that does not make it so. You are not the artbiter of what constitutes a "reason" for places that you don't work or volunteer, or where you've never even been.
The fact remains that Exterior Firefighter certification is an improvement in standards, not a lessening, as it's creating a certification for what those firefighters actually do right now.
You can't get around them by claiming that people who are restricted to exterior operations due to time, physical ability, department lack of funding, or whatever are still beneficial to their departments.
If they were not, they wouldn't be members.
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If you want your "interior qualified but never go in" guys to staff RIT, then you're buying right into that same false sense of security that Don has.
Using that kind of minimally-qualified interior firefighters in a RIT situation increases the risks that you're not only NOT going to be able to rescue the original MAYDAY firefighter, you might just add more LODDs to the original one.
Then there's the fact that you're trying to make this simply about a 60-hour class. Several problems with that. Those classes are offered on weekdays in a block (career-friendly) or nights and weekends (supposedly volunteer-friendly). However, some of the firefighters in question can't make either the daytime or evening classes due to their work schedule. That restricts the classes to Saturdays only, which makes it tough to get instructors.
Then there's the fact that South Carolina is an OSHA state that requires NFPA 1582 physicals prior to even taking the SCBA fit test. The fire departments that don't have the money to pay for that physical can't have interior firefighters, no matter what certifications they hold.
Your claim of "excuse" doesn't hold water.
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Less than half of NASA's astronauts have been into outer space even once. The "excuses" range from money to physical issues.
Yet this fact of them never being used in space doesn't negate the fact they still trained to the minimum standards to be an astronaut. Hell, if you want to continue on such an analogy there are a ton of soldiers, active and reserve, who never saw combat, but still meet the minimum qualifications.
Do you keep repeating that "excuse" claim in the vain hope that if you chant it enough, someone will actually believe it?
Sort of like you continuing to say that exterior only quals are not lesser standards?
You are not the artbiter of what constitutes a "reason" for places that you don't work or volunteer, or where you've never even been
Nor are you. You keep speaking in broad terms as well, how many of these places have you've been to? While at it, use Bob as an example, he is here alongside you being a proponent for exterior only and uses his dept as an example and so forth. There are plenty of depts that could have interior qualified personnel, but are choosing not to. Instead of looking to increase standards, we see a defense for lesser standards. Instead of looking at mergers etc, we are seeing excuses so everyone can play.
The fact remains that Exterior Firefighter certification is an improvement in standards, not a lessening, as it's creating a certification for what those firefighters actually do right now.
Which again shows you are talking in broad senses to which you just criticized me for doing.
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Using that kind of minimally-qualified interior firefighters in a RIT situation increases the risks that you're not only NOT going to be able to rescue the original MAYDAY firefighter, you might just add more LODDs to the original one.
So instead of looking to have everyone capable of doing a job, and so forth, you are basically conceeding that those interior qualified FFs are thus expendable then, right?
Face it Ben, even if you do have an outside dept doing RIT and if there is a MAYDAY, there will still need to be jobs done.....who's doing it? Exterior guys? You can have an attack team trapped, RIT goes in......who's fighting the fire inside? Stop hiding behind such lame excuses for lesser standards.
Then there's the fact that you're trying to make this simply about a 60-hour class. Several problems with that. Those classes are offered on weekdays in a block (career-friendly) or nights and weekends (supposedly volunteer-friendly). However, some of the firefighters in question can't make either the daytime or evening classes due to their work schedule. That restricts the classes to Saturdays only, which makes it tough to get instructors
More lame excuses. Sure seems to work here, multiple classes, several places to do the certs, different times to accomodate. Gee, I don't know how they are able to do it in this state to have such a minimum standard.
Then there's the fact that South Carolina is an OSHA state that requires NFPA 1582 physicals prior to even taking the SCBA fit test. The fire departments that don't have the money to pay for that physical can't have interior firefighters, no matter what certifications they hold.
Fine, tell me this. How many of these departments to which you refer have no SCBAs at all? I will say that if an exterior only cert would improve their ops, then fine........but if there is even one SCBA on any rig......why shouldn't there be minimum standards in place to be utilizing that equipment?
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Permalink Reply by Bob Callahan on
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Besides the local variations, which is the biggest issue I have with FFI, another issue that I have with FFI being the national standard is that it includes SCBA and interior operations, which by it's very nature, excludes members that do not wish to use or are incapable of using an SCBA and operating interior.
The fact is there are departments that are exterior-based, and rarely if ever, make entry into a working fire situation, and for them FFI the interior components of FFI is irrelevant.
I am uncomfortable with FFI because it is not a standard that applies to non-interior personnel and departments in addition to the issues I have discussed in other posts.
FFI by the nature of the course cirriculum assumes that firefighter and fire department are capable of wearing an SCBA and capable of operating interior,
In addition, the variations in FFI are more significant than they would be in an Exterior Certification. In an exterior cert program, would there be variations like the one you described? Yes, and honestly that is an issue with any certification which bothers quite a bit, and does cause me reservations in supporting even a standardized exterior firefighter cert. That being said, I am comfortable enough with those issues to support it so that we achieve a true baseline certification process that would apply to primarily exterior departments. I think that's very important as it will apply to all FDs regardless of their interior orientation.
I may even go as far as to say if a national exterior firefighter training framework was developed, without a certification process, where departments had to do X hours on topic Y, and such, based on local operations not following a defined cirriculum like FFI I would support it, It could be set up so that it would require a specific amount of hours in each specified area, but the material taught would be entirely local based on what the local department wanted to teach. No testing and no certification.I know there are some states that already do this, and it may be nice to see this adopted by all states on a national level.
They would receive a certificate of completion that they could present to another department showing a defined number of hours in exterior operations. Even that would satisfy me at a very basic level and met the basic goals that I would have for such a program.
Yes, it would no longer be a certification, but it would alleviate the problems with local applicability.
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