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Responding with No Crew
Are there any OSHA or NFPA guidelines as to how many members are to be on a single piece of apparatus when responding to a Call?
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Blake Mayo on
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Yes, I believe that bot NFPA 2500 and 1500 mentions minimum staffing of apperatus, I believe that the guildlines are 5 for an engine.
Yes there are, NFPA has minimum staffing requirements. I remember reading some about changes I will put the possible changes in parantheses I also believe that the guidline can be found in NFPA 2500 and I think are mentioned in 1500. But you can go to the NFPA directory to find it as well. So here goes, for an engine 5 (4) for a ladder or arial 6 (5) Rescues and all other apperatus is 2 if my memory serves me correctly.
Blake Mayo
Sr.FF Alfred Station FD
Alfred Station NY
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Permalink Reply by Shawn McMahon on
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1500 Chapter 6 didn't have anything. I haven't found a 2500 yet.
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Permalink Reply by Todd Algie Young on
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According to NFPA or Osha? They are recomendations, not rules Written in Stone. Most of the Minimum Maning is set by Labor Unions. Just like Incident Command. They are Guide Lines to assist in Emergency Operations. If it were up to City Administrators & Fire Chiefs? They would send the Fire Apparatus with a Driver & ??? So all of you need to re read your Books. But NO Emergency Scene is BY THE BOOK. Many Men have Died & been Injuried for lack of Chiefs & Administrators recognising that Fire Service is a Unique Employment with Minimum Manpower requirements. I started the Fire Service many Years ago. Before all the Books were Written. Just one Book. The IFSTA book Co- written by a Chief Warrant Officer is US Air Force Garland. That is when every Chief had a Aide, ( No Portable Radios) Engine Company's had 5+, Aerial & Service Trucks with Ladders had 5+, Rescue Crews had 5 to 7 Men. No need to wait for a Second Engine or other Company to arrive as is now the rule. Your Back up was on the Truck. We attacked the Fire with First Hand Line Man & Officer. The Hydrant man caught the Hydrant & went in with the Second Hand Line Man. Fires were Scared of us then. Now The Beast Laughs at US. Big Truck with Thousands of Gallons of Water & Hose to flow 3 times what I used. Sitting out at the Street Waiting for a Back up for a Back UP? Get real Guys. Need to go back to the days when the Fire Department was the Biggest Employer & a Force to be reckoned with. Now I am Prepared for Comments to the Contraity
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Permalink Reply by Brian Veach on
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The important thing to remember is that NFPA and it's regulations are not law. The are recommendations of a professional organization. Some insurance companies or even governmental organizations will base their requirements on NFPA guidelines, but there are no hard and fast requirements for a piece of equipment to leave the barn. Some cities are lucky enough to man engines and trucks with 6 people. Others may staff and engine with 3 and truck with 3 and have them respond together. Now, if something goes horribly wrong, a case can be made that the agency may be at fault for not following professional guidelines for manning. This may work in a civil case. However, lawyers for cities that have low manning will surely have a defense against this claim. Manning will always be an issue until funding isn't.
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Permalink Reply by John Crabbe on
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Well I would hope someone is at least driving it if it is responding. :-)
NFPA does recommend 4 on an engine and 5 for a truck, but these are only recommendations. In order to have teeth they need to be adopted by the state, community, etc.
However, the reality is that the recommendation is moreso for people operating on the fireground (15 to18 personnel) where they come from doesn't matter. So it doesn't matter if you have 2 people on a pump and six on a rescue or one on the ladder etc. Getting people on scene is going to be a priority. Adequate staffing on the rig means there will be other crews available for other calls when you have several rigs tied up on a fire scene. In some communities a single fire can deplete the entire community of resources, so it really does vary.
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Permalink Reply by Ben Waller on
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Actually, no.
OSHA specifies a minimum of 2 in, 2 out for interior firefighting if there is no rescue problem.
No NFPA standard specifiy the number of firefighters that ride any rig - by implication, that number is "one" - the driver.
NFPA 1710 specifies standard of cover, initial alarm manpower, and response times for career fire departments and NFPA 1720 does the same for volunteer and combination departments, but crew configurations are up to the AHJ - the local authority having jurisdiction.
Regardless of how any AHJ specifies crew configurations and standards of cover, your mileage may vary.
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Actually, there is no such thing as a "NFPA Regulation". The NFPA publishes standards, but they are not regulations.
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Permalink Reply by Jack/dt on
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Ben,
I think he may have been thinking of the NIST manpower study recommendations.
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The NFPA does not have a Standard numbered 2500. There is a gap in their numbering systembetween Standard 2113 to Standard 5000.
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There is no NFPA 2500.
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Todd,
Remind us all again what the LODD rate was back 'then.'
If (and I don't remember it being so) the fire department was the "...Biggest Employer..." it was probably because so many men were dying from 3/4 boots, canvas coat, no SCBA. But then, there were a lot less synthetic materials back 'then' so being a smoke eater was probably just plain good for you.
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Are you sure? That sounds more like an ISO recommendation than a NFPA recommendation.
The NFPA 1710 and 1720 recommend personnel by alarm and by arrival time benchmarks, but I don't recall them specifying personnel per rig.
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