paid vs vollies

need some advice on how to get the paid guys to work better with the vollies.here at this dept it seems like the paid guys are running off all the vollies, i have been with this dept for about 20 years and before we went paid we were aleast 50 strong on the vollies, as the years went on and we become an paid dept the vollies seem to be dropping off at an great deal,we are down to about 10 maybe 15 vollies left. can i get some oppions from others on getting the vollies back and working with the paid part of the department????.

0 members like this

▶ Reply to This

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Jeff Butcher on January 5, 2012 at 11:41am

I am disheartened by the posts that some people have posted attacking the creditability of fellow firefighters. Whether we are full time or paid on-call or volunteer we are all simply, firefighters. There has been no better of volunteerism in the United States history than the volunteer fire service. When you attack volunteer firefighters remember they make up three quarters of United States firefighters and save the country billions of dollars each year.

The first step to any successful program is to identify the problem. In most fire stations we have become so caught up in the standard read a power point, go out do a monotonous drill, and belittle the guys who didn’t know something. The problem of separation lies on both sides of the fence. Usually when a department goes to a combination the volunteers perceive the full time staff as “taking away” power from them. The truth is that the volunteers have given up the power by conceding to them because they have more training. The volunteers need to be brought back in to the department and re-oriented to how they have just as much if not more experience and training then the full timers.

Secondly, the full timers tend to look down on the volunteers because they are seen as lazy, untrained, and fire groupies. What full timers forget is that after working all day at their normal careers they left their warm bed to come in at one am to help and now have to go back to work without any sleep! The only person that the full timers have to point a finger at for training is themselves. Wait you say, it’s not my job to track them down and force them to train! Your right, but it is your duty to create an atmosphere that inspires the volunteers to want to train. If you talk down to them and run last minute trainings or attack them when they ask questions you have just drove them to not train! As for fire groupies, we want enthusiastic guys to come down to the station and be excited to respond. When was the last time you got out of bed that excited to come to work?

The answer is that every person in every station needs to take personal responsibility for the department. If you give that power up or misuse that power then our fire service as a whole will not be improved. The responsibility for the future is in each one of the firefighter’s hands across this nation, volunteer and career.

▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by John Crabbe on January 5, 2012 at 2:46pm

If you talk down to them and run last minute trainings or attack them when they ask questions you have just drove them to not train!

Jeff, I agree with some things and disagree on others. I'm not seeing this "attack on credibility" as you say, but I see a questioning of responses. As such there has been some further elaboration by some, whereas there is still a wide gap of unanswered questions too. For instance I pointed out several times to the OP to look at the bigger picture because there is more to the story than just paid guys running off the voliies. There are some valid points in which you do bring up to assist with the OP's question, but it also promotes looking at the bigger picture.

The first step to any successful program is to identify the problem

Absolutely, but to further this...problems. There is more to such an issue than just one problem and to correct things takes efforts from all sides.

Usually when a department goes to a combination the volunteers perceive the full time staff as “taking away” power from them

If such is the case, then that creates an issue to fester. There should not be a question of holding "power" because that takes away from the purpose of the FD, because such a mindset places focus internally as opposed to externally and serving the public. When depts do look to hire on fulltime personnel there is a reason for it as opposed to some form of power grap. Typically a turn to FT personnel delves into an increased service level (like providing EMS, etc) a larger response area, increased calls, widening response time gaps, lack of people responding, gaps in personnel available, and so on.

So essentially while you say...."There has been no better of volunteerism in the United States history than the volunteer fire service".....We also have to look at the reasoning in which people were thus paid to be FF's. Typically that is due to increase in population, increase in call volume, increased response times, increased area, decrease in people able to respond in a volunteer capacity.

The truth is that the volunteers have given up the power by conceding to them because they have more training. The volunteers need to be brought back in to the department and re-oriented to how they have just as much if not more experience and training then the full timers.

Which essentially goes back to the previous response. There is more than just training involved when a decision is made to bring in full timers. However, since the topic was raised, it should be rememered there can be disparity in trainings and typically aweekly, bi-monthy, or even monthly drill for a couple hours isn't the same as those who train several times a week. Yes, volunteers can possess and even exceed some training as FT's, but the reasoning for having FT's typically goes beyond training.

Secondly, the full timers tend to look down on the volunteers because they are seen as lazy, untrained, and fire groupies

Maybe, maybe not. Typically opinions are formed because of the person and character as just opposed to being paid or volunteer. I would say the vast majority of us here knows of people we work with (be it career or volunteer) who could fit such a mold.

What full timers forget is that after working all day at their normal careers they left their warm bed to come in at one am to help and now have to go back to work without any sleep!

Depends on circumstances too. Let's admit that there definately is a selective response that volunteers are afforded and career are not. It completely depends upon the call at hand. Now I would bet there would be a higher opinion of the volunteer who does go on most every call as opposed to the one who shows up only for the "working fire" call. When you get that sick, vomiting call, you really are not seeing a huge influx of people responding from their warm beds as opposed to getting that fire call. Also, let's not look beyond the fact you can and do have fulltimers who are up all night too responding to calls etc, some may have to go into work elsewhere too after a shift at the station.

The only person that the full timers have to point a finger at for training is themselves. Wait you say, it’s not my job to track them down and force them to train! Your right, but it is your duty to create an atmosphere that inspires the volunteers to want to train.

No, I disagree here. Training comes from the top and leadership is the key, it is the position of the chief to ensure training standards are met, this goes for any and all depts. As such, this task can be passed on to a training officer, division etc. It is all about span of control. Any responsibilty for "training environment" etc does come down to leadership, plain and simple. You're right, you can't "force" volunteers to train, but a leader can require that standards are met and if the person doesn't want to or can't meet the standards, then there is no reason to coddle them.

If you talk down to them and run last minute trainings or attack them when they ask questions you have just drove them to not train!

Once again, this comes down to leadership. True, a training environment should be open and free for input, questions, and discussions, but there is also persoanl accountability too. If someone is so easily offended, then perhaps they shouldn't be around. The training environment does vary too, the brand new person still going through certification classes may have a legitimate excuse as opposed to one who has been around and is certified. For instance if training on what should be an expectation and someone is certified, well then expect some gruff if struggling with a task. Take something as simple as connecting to a hydrant......sure you may spend a little time with a new person, but if running a drill and you have someone who is certified and signed off and struggles with such a task, yes expect some gruff.

Now, I'm not defending attitudes of animosity which can stem from anywhere, but the illusion that there has to be "coddling" on the training ground. You can have a stern coach who will teach and get the point across, but then expects you to be able to perform too. If you can't grasp the topic and don't work on personal improvement, then expect gruff. What I mean here is that it sounds as if the training environment isn't "just right" for the volunteers, they don't want to work harder. Whereas it does take some personal inititive as well. If you struggle at training with a task, then it is YOUR responsibility to seek out help, not the other way around.

The answer is that every person in every station needs to take personal responsibility for the department........The responsibility for the future is in each one of the firefighter’s hands across this nation, volunteer and career.

I agree. Personal responsibility and accountability has just as much to do with the question at hand as opposed to just the paid guys driving out the vollies. Typically the first place to look for improvement starts by looking in the mirror.

▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Patti Walz on January 5, 2012 at 2:54pm

Tried, but just can't keep my mouth shut any longer...

Tell you what I will shut up and listen if you learn to communicate in an effective way.

This attitude is why there will always be an us vs them.

I find learning from pompous arrogant chauvanistic pigs a moot point as all you care about doing is stroking your ego and bellying up to the bar to see who has the biggest....

▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by WestPhilly on January 5, 2012 at 4:07pm

Patti,

What's with the "chauvanistic pigs" comment? What part of Moose's post prompted that particular pronouncement?

▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Jeff Butcher on January 5, 2012 at 4:08pm

John,

Great points! I agree with a lot of your points. The one thing that I will still disagree with is "Training comes from the top and leadership is the key". If each firefighter of any department takes on a personal responsibility to ensure that every firefighter below him is prepared and as knowledgeable as himself then the fire department will grow in both ability and camaraderie. I think the span of control is destroyed when we focus completely on the group trainings to support every firefighter. We use a combination of group trainings and mentoring to help meet each person’s educational needs. By not changing focus from waiting for one person to control the entire system we are allowing the department to fail. The amount of training and time spent to maintain highly effective firefighters is simply too much for administration to effectively handle.

▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Patti Walz on January 5, 2012 at 4:14pm

Sorry West I just get so tired of the whole paid vs vollie crap. I tried keeping my mouth shut and it worked for one day....

▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by WestPhilly on January 5, 2012 at 4:19pm

As long as you realize it's a paid vs vollie issue and not a boys vs girls issue, it's okay by me. (But you owe Moose the "sorry", not me.)

▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Patti Walz on January 5, 2012 at 4:20pm

Nicely said.

▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Patti Walz on January 5, 2012 at 4:25pm

Your right I do owe him an apology for being a twit.

I get so sick of us vs them. I deal with this on every call, every drill, every function that I go to. It makes me wonder if it is really worth the frustration and then I think about my neighbors who depend on our little vollie station.

I wish people would just grow up, quit complaining and learn to work together as a unit of one. But I know that in reality that is just a pipe dream.