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Window attack.
It was brought up at a discussion at training about a quick window fog stream attack prior to interior attack on a confirmed room and content fire, what is everyones thoughts on this?
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Moose on
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Mike, I feel for ya brother. I too was victim to being replaced by someone with less training and experience due to the fact they were more popular. Im in a new department now and after only 6 months of membership was voted in as Captain. A year later, I just got nominated for assistant chief (Voting tonight, wish me luck!) Why did I get these spots so quick? I spoke up at drills and meetings, I shared my knowledge with other less experienced firefighters and taught those that were willing. I talked to the officers and shared my ideas at calls about tactics. SHARE THOSE THOUGHTS AND CONCERNS BROTHER!!! When it comes down to it, you are the experienced senior member, if you see an issue point it out. It doesnt have to be disrespectful in any way, but say something. After a while other members will see how inexperienced these newbie officers are, and how valuable you are. They will want you back, and if these newbies have any respect in them at all for senior members they will hopefully start to listen to you and learn. Keep up the faith and keep teaching.
I have used this tactic many times with just two of us on scene. We are a small dept, and I have rolled to a few structure fires with just myself and a driver on the first engine. We get other firefighters on scene in their POV's that gear up and back me up on nozzle. One fire was a basement fire. We pulled up and saw a heavy smoke condition on the first floor but no fire. Size-up showed high temps in the basement area and through a rear sliding door into the basement we could see some flame at ceiling level but nothing big. We vented a window further away from the door and than I hit the ceiling with a quick blast of water. After that I entered the basement, found a little fire on the wall and ceiling that was quickly knocked. We did this with two firefighters on the one 1 3/4" attack line with less than 100 gallons of water. The fire was under control within 10 minutes of arrival.
I agree with the others though, this must be done only when there is no interior firefighters or possible victims inside. My fire was confirmed by the owner who was out in the family car with his family upon arrival that no one was inside the house. So I used that tactic to hopefully get a quick knockdown and save the house with limited manpower. It works, you just need to be TRAINED how to do it.
Good discussion so far.
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Permalink Reply by Don Catenacci on
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I don't disagree with you. I guess my point was if people are going to advocate exterior attacks THEY need to understand that it is only a viable tactic if there are no possible victims inside the structure.
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Permalink Reply by Jeff Cole on
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There's a lot of discussion going on behind the suppossed results of research done by the Underwriter labs, Dr. Frankenstein, and host of others. We have so mnay variables today. To recite them all is to sound like a broken record (or to update it a bit, a skipping CD...I'll one-up ya Arnold Horshack!) BUT just a few are the hotter temps, better insulation, faster collapse, less dense framing and support materials...etc. Plus the absence of realistic training, and in many cases, less actual fire duty. Retiring, or leaving experienced members and officers. And below- acceptable staffing. Sounds pretty grim!
Of course we aint ALL in that situation. Some of the previously busty departments that were well staffed continue to operate that way. And so maybe not has changed. Some of the inner-city, urban construction has remained the same for the majority. Not completely, and of course there are renovations. But some communities have seen the addition of hundreds of light-weight, new construction condos, townhouse, projects, and single and duplex units.
Let's confuse things some more, and dive into the European tactical approach of beginning an attack from an 'anti-ventilation" approach. Seriously, read "Euro Firefighter". London is one busy place!
What's this all got to do with this guy's original question?
I dunno...I just started going off and already lost my place.
But now they tell ya you can't "push fire" based on labratory, evolution-based fire models. Perhaps it's all a play on terminology. Maybe it always was. Burned vs. unburned side attack. PPV off the apparatus before the line is charged, and blow a nice big breee through a frame dwelling. Rely on 1.75" for just about everything. Preconnected confusion; if it aint preconnected, we're confused!
Do we (can we) apply water through a window for a few seconds to achieve a knock-down, or slow-down when we have maybe three people, and that's all wer're gonna get for the next 5 minutes? Or do we let it keep burning, growing, and wait for that optimum staff to arrive, and get the line in the optimum position, for the optiaml attack...on a pile of rubble with perhaps a still-standing chimney?
How about we evaluate, (size-up) and take a chance at extinguishing the fire to the best of our ability with the resources we have NOW?
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Permalink Reply by Gregory Borg on
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Go inside an put the fire out.
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Permalink Reply by John Jacquette on
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Conditions, Life Safety and Available Resources will help to develop your Plan of Action. Direct or Indirect Attack, a line needs to get to the fire and some water applied to slow its progress.
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Permalink Reply by Ben Waller on
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Without a 360-degree size-up, how do you KNOW that this fire is confined to a single room? These firefighters can see through the open door and if there's a victim just outside this room, it is going to be glaringly obvious.
I'm also trying to determine how you are going to steam someone through a closed door???
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This room is completely flashed over. There are no victims in that room. The two choices are that the room is unoccupied or that there are one or more DOAs in the room.
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The problem is that there are 2 firefighters inside that home and when that freelancer popped those windows he changed the entire dynamic of what was happening inside. He very well could have killed those 2 firefighters. If I had been one of those firefighters I would have been looking for him and the conversation certainly wouldn't have been pleasant.
Freelancing has NO place on the fire ground.
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Permalink Reply by Pararescue on
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Even if there is a body in the room, you go and get it.
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I'm talking total operation. And 750 is being very generous on the water. 10 Gallons on a F/I bedroom fire? Just charging 250' of 1 3/4 is 75 gallons. And the steam theory was thrown out the window in the early '80's along with fog nozzles.
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By pushing the fire, the velocity from the hose stream causes turbulence in the area, and fire will move with the turbulence. As for UL studies, a great learning tool, period. If every fire we fought was in a controlled and prescribed environment, I'd agree completely with NIST and UL. Until that day, nope. Changes in the current construction of all structures, commercial and residential are being undermined due to the current state of the economy. "2X4's" are just a little off, but within legal limits. Fire resistant drywall, rock board or green board are used as thin as can be bought. And cement is measured to exact specs. If you can get away with using 3 inches, you get "just about" 3 inches. Even cinder blocks are thinner then just 10 years ago. NIST and UL use "perfect world" scenarios, not real world.
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Permalink Reply by Jack/dt on
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Jason,
How are "Changes in construction of all structures, commercial and residential are being undermined due to the current state of the economy?' That's certainly NOT the case in my town. Building codes are building codes regardless of where the economy is, to presume otherwise is somewhat foolish.
""2X4's" are just a little off, but within legal limits." What are the legal limits? The actual dimensions of solid lumber is determined by structural engineers. That they are NOT actually 2" x 4" is because the same load can be carried by the smaller, NOMINAL lumber, and yes, because it does allow for a few more sticks to be cut out of a log. But in 30 plus years, the only actual 2" x 4" lumber I've seen, came OUT of houses that were built pre-war.
"Fire resistant drywall, rock board or green board are used as thin as can be bought." Around here, FR drywall is a minimum of 5/8" thick, where as drywall for non-RF (walls and ceilings) are typically 1/2.
"And cement is measured to exact specs." There you go, your first correct statement. Cement IS measured to exact specs, but I suspect that what you ACTUALLY meant was CONCRETE, which too is measured to exact specs. Depends on how strong you want the 'crete. As for getting away with 3 inches, in WHAT application? Sidewalk? Yours or the town's?
Jason, I'll make no comment on your abilities as a firefighter, but with regard to BUILDING CONSTRUCTION, I suggest you study up a whole lot more.
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