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Pistol Grip Nozzles
Nozzle & Back-up Techniques Video
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by sean marston on
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when instructing new people, i try to keep them away from the pistol grip nozzles. they tend to let them slide back too far and have to use their whole body to control it. once they have some time in, that's when i don't watch what nozzle they use as much. that way they don't develop bad habits. personally it doesn't matter for me, i keep the nozzle out either way.
as for the backup person, on a 2 1/2 and a 2" with an automatic nozzle i agree with the video. but for an 1 3/4 or a 2" with a smooth bore, the backup person could give you some space. my crew seems to move faster on just about everything as long as we are not on top of each other, unless the situation dictates.
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Permalink Reply by Mark McShane Jr on
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I like pistol grips on small lines like booster or forestry line. They aren't very good on attack lines.
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Permalink Reply by Don Catenacci on
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I agree that inexperienced, or lazy, people do allow the nozzle to slide back under the armpit. To me the ironic thing is people blame the tool and not the user.
I always teach that the nose and nozzle should be out front of the firefighter. The shutoff should be at almost full arm extension when the line is in operation.
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Permalink Reply by Ed Hartin on
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When using the pistol grip the nozzle operator frequently holds the nozzle too close to his or her body limiting movement of the nozzle. The position of the backup firefighter depends on the application (e.g. small hoseline versus large, fixed position versus mobile). Working with a small line, the backup firefighter can be further back, pulling up hose. With a large hoseline as illustrated in the video, it may be necessary for the backup firefighter to be close behind to assist in relieving nozzle reaction, but again it depends.
Cheers,
Ed Hartin
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Permalink Reply by Dennis Reynolds on
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I do not prefer pistol grip nozzles, for exactly the reason described in the video. However, if the line does have a pistol grip nozzle, I use it in the same fashion shown. The pistol doesn't really matter to me, since I don't use it.
I will have to agree on the fatigue factor. When I was fresh out of the academy, I kept that grip on the pistol and tight to my body. I discovered that my arms would hurt the next day (especially after an all nighter). I prefer to let the hose do the work and I will direct the stream.
For those that use the grip for dragging the hose, I use webbing to drag the 2 1/2" or 3" because I like to keep my hands free as much as possible. It also helps to use your body weight to pull the hose and creates less fatigue on your arms. Maybe it will work for them, it works for me. Just IMHO
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Permalink Reply by Chris Collier on
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I just have to laugh at the piling on of blaming the tool and not the user for problems with a pistol grip nozzle. It is ludicrous to blame the pistol grip for fatigue, for improper technique, for laziness, for poor training, for sloppiness, or for being too stupid to learn the job and the tools you are given to use.
I have been using pistol grip nozzles for well over 25 years and gosh, guess what? I haven't experienced fatigue, soreness, holding the nozzle to close to my body, the inability to move the nozzle as needed, water weight gain, the pain of hemorrhoids, diarrhea, or cough from the common cold from using a pistol grip nozzle.
TRAINING, TRAINING, TRAINING...funny how that is the answer to everything except using pistol grip nozzles. I use the pistol grip when it is appropriate and I slide my hand back on the hose and use it like there is no pistol grip when that is appropriate. Some of the new nose, like Ponn Conquest, does not allow sliding your hands back and whipping the nozzle in the rapid up, down, all around motion because the hose kinks and gets out of control. New techniques must be taught for hose and nozzle control with those styles of hose.
Frankly, if you hold the nozzle too close to your body and experience fatigue or poor hose handling because of it maybe the best course of action would be to get properly trained instead of blaming the tool. It doesn't matter to me whether you use a pistol grip or not, I have used both and understand how to make both of them work to my advantage.
Technique, not the tool, is the issue.
Stay safe.
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They would get roasted alive if they posted an ad like that today! It is hysterical though.
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Permalink Reply by Ron King (Fire Chief) on
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I like the pistol grip nozzle. But the pistol grip can be used the same way thats on the Video just grip back on the hose. The back up firefighter is basic firefighter one training. But sometimes its hard to get your people to do it. But thats what makes life so much fun!
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Permalink Reply by Pierre-Louis Lamballais on
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If you want to compare seriously two methods, you must ask someone who is "pro" to demonstrate and tell you why, and then ask someolne who is "con" to do the same.
Here what I see are two guys, doing one method the wrong way, in order to "proove" it's bad. Like if I was driving a motorcylce eyes closed, so falling down and saying "You see, it prooves motorcycles are dangerous". It seems to be a common practise to proove some technics are good, only by demonstrating opposite method the wrong way. If you want to proove something is good, you must tell why and not by trying to fool the students such a way.
Here are two videos. First is the "progression" part of the attack, to come from the entrance to the seat of fire. The second is a method of attack for underventilated fire.
So why? You must use the pistol grip because is create a reaction right angle from the reaction force of the nozzle. Like when you are on you Harley: you dont have the handle in the same direction than the body of the moto, but right angle. You must have the arm straigh in order to open the nozzle completly, especially when using fog, because the quality of the fog patern is better when the nozzle is full opened. This allow you to move the nozzle from top to bottom left, right and so on. See the second vidao, the guy have absolutly no difficulty to change the direction of the steam. You must be on your knees (two) for many reason. First, studies demonstrate than, in case of problem, if you are on your knees, you will stay, so you will open wide your nozzle and protect your. If you are only on one knee, you will stand up and get burn by the hit smoke layer, try to run, loose you nozzle and that's for you the beginning of the end.
Also, you gravity center, on two knees, is lower and you get better stability, and be able to see just over you. The other FF must not touch you because if he touches you, he will compress the air protection under your gear and you'll get burned. If he want to talk to you, he just knock on your helmet and talk to you by avancing to your ear.
Best regards
Pierre-Louis
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Permalink Reply by Brennan on
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Chris,
Lots of great comments posted here... But I highly recommend taking the engine co. H.O.T. at FDIC next year. They will let you use all kinds of hand lines, pistol or non pistol and you can decide. They also give some GREAT tips for the backup crew members. If you a new guy or a 25 yr guy I recomend going to this class. The guys are great and you can try and ask lots of questions.
After taking that class and learning some new ways to hold and handle hand lines I now never use the pistol grip. I have been showing our other firefighters and they also are moving away from using the pistol grip even though we still have them on all lines.
Hope this helps
Brennan
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And I will tell you straight up that if you used either one of those methods in attacking the training fires we had in the mobile homes we did live fire training in a couple of weeks ago you would have gotten burned and chased from the building.
We were advancing down the hallway to the end of the trailer where the main body of fire was located. There was NO ventilation and the fire was coming down the hallway and over our heads. We had to flow water, and KEEP FLOWING WATER, into the overhead to allow us to move down the hallway. We used straight streams and I have no doubt whatsoever that if we had used a fog pattern of any kind we would have gotten steam burned. How do I know? Because the nozzle mistakenly got opened on fog a couple of times and the stream INSTANTLY turned to steam and pushed all the heat and smoke down on us making the advance even harder .
IF you have no active fire over your head pulsing can be a viable tactic to reduce heat and help to prevent the heated smoke and gasses overhead from igniting. I see no advantage to the pulsing/pencilling type of attack over the straight stream/smoothbore up down all around style of fire attack. At the vey least the up down all around attack eliminates the need for changing patterns repeatedly in the heat of battle.
I am not suggesting you change a thing. I am however suggesting that in the type of construction and fireloading we generally deal with I believe the up down all around, or the brief sweep of the ceiling with a straight stream/smoothbore and then directly to the heart of the fire with that same pattern is more viable.
Stay safe my Brother.
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