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Bin Laden's Death. How do you feel about it?
Bin Laden's Death.. how do you feel about and what are some of your thoughts on everything that is happing?
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Ben Waller on
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You would never seem like you were being sarcastic.
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Permalink Reply by David Francis on
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they said special forces did the job, now if we remember correctly, from our movie days that means good o'l mr chuck norris did the job well, and as for the seal team well charlie sheene went balls to the wall doing his job and bill paxton playing " god " as a sniper look out did his job, and then that leaves lmao demi moore, as bin laden wife charged, sheene put one in her leg and demi moore said the famous quote , suck my d^%K and took out bin laden. yeah for movie stars. yea yea i know stupid but a little humore doesn't hurt.
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Permalink Reply by Norm Tindell on
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I had my hopes up BZ was one of those broad-shouldered ex-Seals. Oh, well. Guess we'll just have to settle for retired firefighter...sigh.
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Speaking of humor, I understand Bin Laden's last words were, "That's great. I need a house full of Navy Seals like I need a hole in my head!"
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Permalink Reply by Mark Oomkes on
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Not exactly liberty or freedom in so many words, but here's how he won:
http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2011/05/08/schumer-calls-for-do-not-rid...
http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/2011/05/09/2011-05-09_bomb_scar...
http://www.myspartanews.com/articles/2011/05/09/news/doc4dc7daf81fc...
http://denver.cbslocal.com/2011/05/08/4-arrested-after-suspicious-i...
http://dfw.cbslocal.com/2011/05/07/bomb-threat-forces-evacuation-of...
Or the mall that was evacuated because of the guy carrying the umbrella.
Or how about the ads in WalMart's telling the "People of Walmart" to report anything suspicious.
We're scared of our own shadows. We have 6 year olds being felt up before getting on a plane. Try using the soap in an airport restroom or hand lotion before going through security. Or the handicapped folks using a TSA wheelchair, forced to stand up out of said wheelchair because it sets the alarm off.
And all the while, our southern border is wide open for any terrorist who desires, to walk right on in.
Anyone that really believes that the TSA's 100% reactive measures to past threats is what is keeping us from being attacked again is naive at best.
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Permalink Reply by Jack/dt on
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Ben,
a) IN GENERAL- The Immigration and Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. 1101 et seq.) is amended by inserting after section 236 the following:
`MANDATORY DETENTION OF SUSPECTED TERRORISTS; HABEAS CORPUS; JUDICIAL REVIEW
Note that it says "SUSPECTED", so any "alien" could be considered a "SUSPECTED" terrorist and thus deprived of the writ of habeus corpus.
So really my well researched point is NOT moot since I was pointing out how liberties may have been suspended (temporarily). A person "suspected" of anything, according to our laws has the right to habeus corpus, to see the evidence against them, have an attorney and be entitled to a speed trial. Once all of that has been accomplished and they are found guilty of being a terrorist THEN the rules change. How can the rules be changed before it is even known if a person is guilty?
Note that neither I nor the P.A. was talking about giving rights to enemy combatants (those are interred at Gitmo I believe and so not within the "purview" of the constitution, so to speak.) What the P.A. DOES do is that, with only the vaguest of 'suspicion' any alien can be deemed a "terrorist suspect" be detained indefinitely and denied the writ of habeus corpus, all previously illegal since any "alien" in the U.S. legally is entitled to the same laws and rights as the rest of us.
I forget, what do you always call it, a 'straw man argument', false logic, or some other of your wonderful litany of philosophy vocab and arguments, in any event, your point 2) really is one of those. As I addressed earlier I never even mentioned enemy combatants, I think you threw that in to fill out your response block. :>
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Jack,
Lets debunk those in reverse order, shall we?
A straw man is where someone replies to an argument with something that sounds vaguely like the original argument, but is more extreme and/or easier to debate, but makes it sound as if the straw man was the original point. I didn't do that. I brought up a counterpoint that you didn't mention at all, and that not only didn't sound anything like your argument, it was in opposition to it.
Enemy combatants do not have to be on foreign soil to meet the definition. The German sabateurs who sneaked ashore from a U-boat in Operation Pastorius during WW II, who were apprehended, imprisoned and tried and hanged never left U.S. soil once they landed. They were enemies, they were aliens, and they weren't wearing uniforms - exactly like any enemy combatant terrorist taken in an act of war against the U.S. now. And...they were tried by...wait for it...a military tribunal. So much for your claim that any "alien" in the U.S. is legally entitled to the same laws and rights as the rest of us. Habeus Corpus didn't apply to those Germans, BTW.
The rules for those Germans "changed" as soon as they landed with the intent to engage in acts of war against the U.S. - just as the average foreign terrorist does nowadays.
As for your first point, since your supporting points don't hold water, apparently claiming that terrorism is a criminal matter rather than a war is the crux of the issue. I say it's a war and that no U.S. citizen has been deprived of any right which he or she is entitled due to the Patriot Act.
I'm just as big on personal freedom as anyone else here. Your post is full of hypotheticals and supposition. You still have not showed how a single U.S. citizen has been deprived of a single right due to the Patriot Act. Remember, you made the claim, so the onus of proof is on you.
Citing non-pertinent case law and hypotheticals isn't proof.
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Doesn't matter, Mark. Those are internal security measures that have nothing to do with our Constitutional rights. There is no Constitutional right to use hand soap, let alone to fly in a plane.
There's a difference between security measures of questionable usefulness and losing a Constitutional right.
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Permalink Reply by Mick Mayers on
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I just saw Bin Laden making a left turn from a right turn lane on the Cross Island Parkway. He's driving a beater Saab.
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"Or how about the ads in WalMart's telling the "People of Walmart" to report anything suspicious."
How about "The price of freedom is eternal vigilance." ? Thomas Jefferson
WalMart was just being vigilant.
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Ben,
WE all are in awe with your ability to argue in a philosophical sense. As well as you're ability to obfuscate (both claims, I'm sure, you will refute soundly but WTF, I'm not here to win the debate club title.)
The germans were, by their very presence, enemy combatants that, given they were NOT in uniform, were subject to immediate execution (if so desired.) The reason...the were GERMANS and we were at war with germany.
On the other hand, ALIENS (and let me repeat this because you seem NOT to get it) legally in this country CAN be arrested, held without bail, no miranda, no habeus corpus IF someone thinks they could be a terrorist.
As for your first point, since your supporting points don't hold water, apparently claiming that terrorism is a criminal matter rather than a war is the crux of the issue. I say it's a war and that no U.S. citizen has been deprived of any right which he or she is entitled due to the Patriot Act.
Ben, I never claimed that terrorism was a criminal matter, what I did say was once a person was found guilty as a terrorist then they could be dealt with as such. The problem with the P.A. is that a person can be TREATED as though they are a terrorist, only later to be determined NOT to be one and released, yet their entire time "in custody" they had NO rights. I pointed this out in answer to YOUR first question, what liberties were suspended. Remember? All the rest has been you trying to tear holes in an argument that I wasn't making...you were.
I believe the Patriot Act...does violate the constitution... I believe it does and showed wording (and of course, speculative statements) to that end.
Specifically what liberty did we give up for safety - either temporary or otherwise? Again, I thought I showed what has been given up, it's in the wording of the P.A. that I included.
As for the definition of Domestic Terrorism, I don't believe that the definition is a cumulative one but rather, one that meets one or some of the definitions. To include the wording "...(B) appear to be intended—" seems (speculative on my part, granted) to be worrisomely vague enough to warrant a loss of constitutional rights for any unlucky alien.
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Jack, your claiming obsfucation is bogus.
I'll show you why in your own words...
"The germans were, by their very presence, enemy combatants that, given they were NOT in uniform, were subject to immediate execution (if so desired.) The reason...the were GERMANS and we were at war with germany."
Here's the modern version...
"Thegermansterroristswereare, by their very presence, enemy combatants that, given they were NOT in uniform, were subject to immediate execution (if so desired.) The reason...thewere GERMANSare terrorists and wewereare at war withgermanyterrorists.
Anyone engaging in or plotting an act of war is, by definition, and enemy combatant. The Germans never carried out a single attack, but they were detained, denied habeus corpus, and executed, and they were denied no Constitutional rights. The same goes for terrorists now.
The fact that the Germans were detained as "suspected" enemy combatants prior to their trial, conviction, and execution is no different than doing the same to "suspected" terrorists now.
I also noticed that you can't cite an actual case where any specific person lost a single shred of liberty, based on anything either in the Patriot Act or your previous claims.
Now if you want to talk about obsfucation, let's talk about your editorializing at the beginning of your last post - none of which has anything to do with the topic.
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