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Drager Air Packs
Have any departments using drager packs had any problems with them. These packs are like having a computer on your back. Has anyone have one fail on them or malfunction. I personaly don't like them. Just looking to see if anyone has any comments on it.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by John Crabbe on
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How about not going down the stairs on your back? If one is descending stairs, they should be going feet first, facing the stairs so you can sound the stairs as you descend and can catch yourself (hopefully) if the stairs collapse under you.
If you submit anything to enough abuse it is a chance that things can happen, even on the SCOTTs. The fact remains that any SCBA out there is easy to turn on but difficult to turn off. Seems you are really reaching for excuses here because of your opinion.
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Permalink Reply by Jamie Starace on
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Anyone should know that decending the stairs should be done facing the stairs. My opinion is not an issue here, it is FACTS. I am alarmed by the ease of the valve turning. Why is there no push to turn on the Dragers? I am just making sure people are fully aware of the issues with this system. Maybe it could prevent a death, but that is just my OPINION.
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Anyone should know that decending the stairs should be done facing the stairs.
Then why did you say before to descend the stairs on the valve side? The valve is on the back and if going down the stairs on the valve side, means you are descending the wrong way.
Why is there no push to turn on the Dragers?
There is no "push" to turn SCOTTs on either, nor MSA, as I mentioned before any SCBA out there is to be easily turned on, but more difficult to turn off. One should have to push the valve in to turn the air OFF, that is a safety feature standard for all SCBAs out there. It is a safety feature just like an integrated PASS alarm, that activates when the bottle is turned on.
It is quite possible for a crew to go in without their air turned on to investigate. However, if encountering smoke/fire, the SCBA should be able to be activated easily by reaching behind and turning ON the valve. When one exits and goes to change bottles, it is more difficult to reach behind and shut the valve off because of the safety feature to push in and turn, hence why most times another FF does it for you.
Your profile says you have been in the fire service for 3 yrs, with less than a year with your current dept, perhaps you are still learning all this and don't really realize the features you are talking about. It also seems you have a bias against the Drager, and that is fine, but the stuff you are coming up with here is easily explained and not problems. I have worked with SCBA for some time and used many different types, I have my opinions on what I like and don't like, but what you are describing here is normal stuff for any.
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This is not a bias toward Dragers, just experiences I have witnessed in my short time using them. Really, please stop trying to read into what I am saying.
The tanks we have do not require you to push to turn in the off or on positions. The SCOTTs have a more distinct push and turn design.
Also there may be situations where you may have to decend stairs feet first with your back to the steps.
Can you easily explain the other issues I have posted about the Dragers?
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Permalink Reply by Michael Meadows on
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We use Drager packs and personally I like them. Nothing wrong with them that isn't wrong with any pack. Yea they fog under some circumstances but then they all will if conditions are right. Never had an issue with them turning on or off accidently. Way better than the survivair packs I was used too. Only thing I don't like about them are the bottles aren't the low profile design like the Scott. But that's the only thing.
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I'm not reading into anything, just dispelling your "issues" here because they just don't add up. Much of the stuff you are talking about here can be chalked up to any other SCBA and you keep going back and forth.
Also there may be situations where you may have to decend stairs feet first with your back to the steps.
When? Don't know about GA, but up here we have basements, lots of them and many times FF's are going downstairs for a fire. Sure there are times we go down the stairs face first, not crawling. If visibility is poor there is no reason to go down on your back where you would have to go down with the valve to the steps. Besides, you already stated before that "Anyone should know that decending the stairs should be done facing the stairs." now you are saying different? Which is it?
Can you easily explain the other issues I have posted about the Dragers?
Sure, and most of them boil down to training and familiarization.
1. Inexperienced or rushing bottle changes may neglect to fully engage the DOD quick connect. I have seen this happen on many occasions during training. It looks like the guy wearing the pack is about to fly off, like rocket man. This is the equivalent to not tightening the threads fully on the Scott packs. You are likely to lose more air on the DOD mishap because the tank does not pop off until the bottle is nearly fully open.
Both training issues here. Inexperienced?...self explanatory, more training is needed. Rushing?..why are you rushing a life safety PPE? Ensure it is on. Both issues are mitigated with training and familiarization. One should be able to locate all features on a pack, be able to change out a bottle, do buddy breathing, etc all while being blindfolded. Haven't done that? It would be a good drill.
2. Regulators popping out because of improper placement. This has been witness on many occasions during training. Unfortunately there is no indicator to show that the regulator is fully seated into the mask. You will hear a click when the metal lock engages, but in a noisy environment you could easily miss it. The regulator may seemed to be seated correctly because you can breath fine, but one good tug on the hose and the regulator can pop out and go into free flow. Advantage to Scott on this one, who requires a quarter turn and a lock you can see.
Another training issue, get familiar with the unit. Once you "plug" the regulator into the facepiece, give a quick pull to ensure it is actually locked.
3. Fogging issues. It does fog on air but you can maintain it with lighter breaths and squeezes on the purge. Off air, you will fog, quickly.
Fogging can be an issue with any facepiece out there, ensure a good seal.
4. OFF AIR RESTRICTIVE BREATHING- why is nobody talking about this issue? As far as comfort, the mask fits WAY better than the Scott mask. The problem is restrictive breating while wearing the mask not on air. I can wear the mask for a while with no problems, but once I start breathing heavy, (like hauling butt to the seventh floor) I am gasping for air. There is not an clear, open hole. You are breathing through a valve. I don't believe that I am getting 21% oxygen. There may be a possiblity of CO2 build-up.
First off, why do you have the facepiece on if you are not on air? Walking up steps?, why chance compromising visibility for the few seconds it should take to don the mask when you reach the staging floor? Really, there is no reason to have your facepiece on if you are not on air, even more reason not to if you are doing heavy work. Most facepieces, irregardless of mfg, tend to fog up when not on air, also since SCBAs are positive pressure, they are not going to be as effective when there is no airflow to the facepiece. Bottom line, keep the mask off until you are ready to go on air.
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Good advice on all points.
I did not mean to cause confusion on which way I would go down steps. All I was trying to say was that normally you would come down correctly. But there may be an instance when you may go an "incorrect" way, which could be a way that effects the valve. No big deal. Lets move on.
When? Don't know about GA, but up here we have basements, lots of them and many times FF's are going downstairs for a fire. Sure there are times we go down the stairs face first, not crawling. If visibility is poor there is no reason to go down on your back where you would have to go down with the valve to the steps. Besides, you already stated before that "Anyone should know that decending the stairs should be done facing the stairs." now you are saying different? Which is it?
It was funny you mentioned face first. During my first "black-out and find your way out" i followed the hoseline head first in a controlled slide down the stairs. I thought I was pretty slick until two instructors told me to never do it again. To me it was an efficient way to get down the stairs, quickly and LOW.
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Only thing I don't like about them are the bottles aren't the low profile design like the Scott.
Are your SCBAs the low pressure 2216 psi or 4500 psi. My guess is that you have the low pressure where the bottles are larger than the high pressure bottles. We currently have 2216 SCOTTs here and our bottles are bigger than our counterparts using the 4500 systems. Where I was a volly, the Drager's we had were the low pressure and a career dept went with high pressure Dragers and the bottles were smaller. So it really isn't just Drager, it is the system which determines the bottle profile.
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No they are the 4500 bottles but they are not low profile. I've not seen very many 4500 bottles that are like that but ours are. But they are composite which is awesome after years with a steel Survivair on my back. But I do know what you are saying but ours definitly are the 4500 bottles.
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30 minute or 60 minute?
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Permalink Reply by Rita Jo Studdard on
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Our department uses Drager Packs so far we have not had any big problems with them. We have sent two of them in to be serviced. Other than that nothing else.
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45 minute bottles.
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