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ADA and Firefighters
I was wondering how people felt about recruits who are disabled going through academy? What is your opinion on this? We have a recruit with uses a handicap placard whenever he goes someplace, even to the station. He is very overweight, I would like to say grossly. I do not know the reason for his acceptance except maybe to satisfy a portion of the American with Disabilities Act. That way no discrimination is show? Or to prove a point that maybe he should not have joined? I don't know the full reasoning so this is only my viewpoint.
How do other stations handle applications from those with handicaps?
I know that the three out stations that I drill with do not feel comfortable being on a call with this person cause if poop hit the fan we do not trust that he would be able to perform. If he is on a call with me do I as a probie have the right to tell my commanding officer that I do not feel safe in this persons hands or trust his abilities?
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Patti Walz on
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I get sick of "the ruralie time" and "the townie time", ok so what is "our department standards".
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Permalink Reply by Stephanie Shirk on
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Reply by John Crabbe 11 hours ago I am simply stating from a legal standpoint it is possible to disobey orders and not get removed from a fire department. I am not suggesting it at all but its possible, cowardly, dangerous to other and Id go so far to say even unpatriotic but still possible.
Stephanie,
The issue here is in how you stated this. As Gary and I talked about here it is one thing if ordered onto a roof that is sagging, that IS a safety issue and command doesn't always know nor see the condidtions.
It is something else to ignore an order because you are scared. Being scared is a natural occurance, but that is why we train so to push fear aside and get the job done. If afraid of heights, and ordered up a ladder to perform a rescue, vent, etc, and you refuse, then THAT is a definate problem. There is no room for such excuses. If you are afraid of heights, that is something to work out on the training ground, not the fireground.
In the end it does depend upon the conditions in which orders were refused. Being scared really won't fly too far in a dept, unless it's a social club aspect. The fears can be worked on etc, sort of a second chance, but there are basic job functions to be performed and if you can't do them, one shouldn't be on the job.
I agree for the most part with what your saying but an officer of a Volunteer department you should also know your crew well enough to know that if you have a person like that on your truck dont assign them to something they cant handle either physically or mentally. In turn yes this person is clearly not cut out for the job but just like the original poster argues whether handicaps (not legitimate ones) disqualify people from the job it wont be easy to get rid of someone who doesnt want to go!
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Permalink Reply by Art "ChiefReason" Goodrich on
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[quote]All of this sage advice and only 1 year in.[end of quote]
And therein lies the problem Jack.
Many of us stated our concerns in the early days of FFN about poor/bad advice being given out by people not qualified to do so.
Telling someone that they DON'T HAVE TO follow orders goes right to the heart of scene safety. Maintaining control at the scene REQUIRES orders to be given and orders to be followed and trust is at the core of the chain of command.
We have all of these discussions where personal opinion is given out as fact whereas over in the blog section, where you have fact-based opinion written up in very informative articles on a wealth of training and survival topics and THEY go almost unnoticed.
I guess some would rather hear themselves or read themselves than take their lead from people who really know.
Sometimes I think that there should be a "Newbies Are Not Permitted To Dispense Advice" zone.
Go ahead, Newbie; argument with me. I DARE you!
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If you cannot do the essential functions of the job, then ADA does NOT apply. It only has to be considered where reasonable accommodations may have to be made, but don't think for a minute that you cannot be terminated because you "claim" to have a disability. It has to be proven, supported by medical documentation and then covered as a disability according to the Americans with Disabilities Act.
And where their safety or where they affect the safety of others, it is a no brainer.
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[quote]All of this sage advice and only 1 year in.[end of quote]
And therein lies the problem Jack.
Many of us stated our concerns in the early days of FFN about poor/bad advice being given out by people not qualified to do so.
Telling someone that they DON'T HAVE TO follow orders goes right to the heart of scene safety. Maintaining control at the scene REQUIRES orders to be given and orders to be followed and trust is at the core of the chain of command.
We have all of these discussions where personal opinion is given out as fact whereas over in the blog section, where you have fact-based opinion written up in very informative articles on a wealth of training and survival topics and THEY go almost unnoticed.
I guess some would rather hear themselves or read themselves than take their lead from people who really know.
Sometimes I think that there should be a "Newbies Are Not Permitted To Dispense Advice" zone.
Go ahead, Newbie; argument with me. I DARE you!
One thing I have learned in my 1 measly year in the department is that both the fire service and the world is constantly changing, so yes experience is always best, but never write someone off for their age or lack of experience. Sound advice comes from the most unexpected channels. One thing in the fire service will always be the same. We are passionate and immature!
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Permalink Reply by Jody Thomas on
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If they can do the job I would see no problem with it. My department requires all firefighters both Volunteer and Career pass the CPAT test as well as a written before becoming members of the department
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Hey, Mike;
Yell up to Stephanie that the mature ones on this site would have caught the irony and sarcasm of this statement: Go ahead, Newbie; argument with me. I DARE you!
I thought I was being quite clever. :-)
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Permalink Reply by Jack/dt on
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It's all about context. A 35 year old person with no fire service but 15 years experience as a builder, electrician or structural engineer may have some great advice on the job. Conversely, an 18 year old with neither life nor fire service experience has little if anything to offer in the way of advice.
It's not about writing someone off just because of their age or experience but contextually being aware of how their life-to-date bears on their ability to advise.
Are you really sure you want to claim that people in the fire service are both passionate AND immature? I can assure you I am not immature, either in the chronological or the psychological context. And as for passion, it waxes and wanes, mostly I enjoy doing it but there often other things I get passionate about.
Finally, as to your rather entrenched position that VFD's can't fire anyone: In part this may be true for those departments that don't have an expansive set of hiring standards and qualifications, a progressive discipline policy and/or a clear cut policy on termination.
Departments lacking the aforementioned set themselves up for not only allowing any joe or mary schmoe to join but then hamstring themselves by not having any legal method for termination. Departments such as these are the social clubs that many of us are constantly referring to.
So to give an inch here, granted there may be those "fire departments" in which it may be difficult if not impossible to be "fired" from. But then, those kind of "departments" exist for reasons other than fire protection. If they were otherwise they would be operating at the highest possible level, rather than one of ignorance and complacency.
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Jack if you are so Mature and not so Passionate why are you even bothering arguing with me online?
I guess in your position you dont have to care what I say, which is fine? But thats a leadership quality that I have that works for me, I make sure to learn something from everyone!
And I still have not said they cant fire anyone... clearly they can but they need a reason! (but this is me beating the dead horse)
And yes my department is A "Vollie" Crew.... and yes we do set ourselves up with having people who are not always reliable or are actually a hinderence and yes sometimes we are stuck with them. But I rather be stuck wtih them and have the good firemen we do then have tighter restrictions and not have some of the firemen we have been able to join.
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but in a volunteer department without doubt they cannot fire you for refusing an order for a reason.
I am stating that a paid person can be fired if they choose to go against orders where technically a "Vollie" cant.
it is possible to disobey orders and not get removed from a fire department.
Stephanie, YES, you have indeed said that a vollie can't be fired. The above are your quotes. Of course they need a reason, but nothing more complex than "you don't cut it." And.....you're fired.
As for maturity and passion, it has little if anything to do with me responding, more likely boredom and time on my hands.
Again you're being disingenuous when you say I don't care what you have to say. If that were true this conversation would have ceased sometime back. As for your "leadership qualities," and learning "something from everyone," you don't seem to be learning here. More than just myself have contradicted you on the point about a vollie not being able to be fired, yet you dig in your heels, claim you're misunderstood and then fall on your knife of self-deprecation ("...I am a dumb female probie...").
It's good that you have a 'crew' that you trust, but it escapes me how, if these guys are so qualified that higher standards might mean some of those great guys wouldn't have been able to join. It seems counter-intuitive to me. Sure you might have few (unqualified) members but those that you do have would all be at or near the same level of qualification/ability. Why wouldn't you want to have that?
Back to your point of vollies being fired and you learning something from everyone, let me direct you back to my previous reply where I acknowledged that there may very well be departments that can't (or won't) fire a member yet you didn't acknowledge those statements. The ones where I actually, to a point, agreed with you.
I think you are more intent on making your case, not being able to back down and admit that you're wrong and basically refusing to be "humbled". That's cool, but just don't go an use the martyr role because other's think you are, in fact, wrong (or at the least, wrong-ish).
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but in a volunteer department without doubt they cannot fire you for refusing an order for a reason.
I am stating that a paid person can be fired if they choose to go against orders where technically a "Vollie" cant.
it is possible to disobey orders and not get removed from a fire department.
Stephanie, YES, you have indeed said that a vollie can't be fired. The above are your quotes. Of course they need a reason, but nothing more complex than "you don't cut it." And.....you're fired.
As for maturity and passion, it has little if anything to do with me responding, more likely boredom and time on my hands.
Again you're being disingenuous when you say I don't care what you have to say. If that were true this conversation would have ceased sometime back. As for your "leadership qualities," and learning "something from everyone," you don't seem to be learning here. More than just myself have contradicted you on the point about a vollie not being able to be fired, yet you dig in your heels, claim you're misunderstood and then fall on your knife of self-deprecation ("...I am a dumb female probie...").
It's good that you have a 'crew' that you trust, but it escapes me how, if these guys are so qualified that higher standards might mean some of those great guys wouldn't have been able to join. It seems counter-intuitive to me. Sure you might have few (unqualified) members but those that you do have would all be at or near the same level of qualification/ability. Why wouldn't you want to have that?
Back to your point of vollies being fired and you learning something from everyone, let me direct you back to my previous reply where I acknowledged that there may very well be departments that can't (or won't) fire a member yet you didn't acknowledge those statements. The ones where I actually, to a point, agreed with you.
I think you are more intent on making your case, not being able to back down and admit that you're wrong and basically refusing to be "humbled". That's cool, but just don't go an use the martyr role because other's think you are, in fact, wrong (or at the least, wrong-ish).
Like I have been saying this whole time never have I said a person cant be fired from a Volunteer position, I have said that departments need a reason and a reason of not following orders can be legally fought.
You are making it out to me saying I volunteered you cant get rid of me and that is not what I am saying and if you read my posts you should be able to understand that.
Now as far as the 'knife' I am falling upon I acknowledged that and I reassessed my point and presented it in a different way, now I guess it still wasnt good enough. But then people critize my experience both in fire service and life, because I am not communicating my point in a way they understand.
About my crew, in our department we have had firemen start as high schoolers, or college drop outs that have become some of our best members. My brother started out as an overweight little pudge ball and because of our department and some hardwork has become a physically fit firefighter. I think people deserve a chance but that just my opinion.
Now as far as what I have learned from this post, I have learned that I dont communicate as clearly as I thought I had before hand.
I also have learned like I previously stated most firefighters are passionate, and some are immature. Which is not a negative thing what so ever, Its exactly what gives us the strength to do our job. It makes us fun, which is another reason why most kids look up to firefighters more than other government officals.
I have also been given lots advice and appreaciate it. However I do not believe I am wrong in saying that sadly there are ways around following orders and its much easier for a volunteer to do so then a paid member.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion and if people think I am wrong thats is fine. I am not trying to argue that not following orders without a reason is wrong and in the end shows your not cut out for this. But until they come to the realization themselves, they can still be around our stations posing such a threat to others just as much as person who cant follow orders due to physical issues.
and believe me I dont want come off as martyr or trying to be that way. I am just trying make my point. And I am passionate about it.
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Stephanie I think the whole fired thing depends upon what state you live in and if you are union or not. In my state you can get fired for what ever reason. The company does not have to provide you with a reason. Volunteer or paid it is the same thing here. We are not union so if someone in the higher ups got a bug up his butt he could fire the whole lot of us and not have to provide a reason.
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