The Social Network & Community JUST for Firefighters
ADA and Firefighters
I was wondering how people felt about recruits who are disabled going through academy? What is your opinion on this? We have a recruit with uses a handicap placard whenever he goes someplace, even to the station. He is very overweight, I would like to say grossly. I do not know the reason for his acceptance except maybe to satisfy a portion of the American with Disabilities Act. That way no discrimination is show? Or to prove a point that maybe he should not have joined? I don't know the full reasoning so this is only my viewpoint.
How do other stations handle applications from those with handicaps?
I know that the three out stations that I drill with do not feel comfortable being on a call with this person cause if poop hit the fan we do not trust that he would be able to perform. If he is on a call with me do I as a probie have the right to tell my commanding officer that I do not feel safe in this persons hands or trust his abilities?
Replies to This Discussion
-
Permalink Reply by Norm Tindell on
-
I didn't believe it until I saw it...We once had a volunteer who had only one arm - his right one. His nickname was "Lefty." He was as good as most of us and a very hard worker. There was almost nothing he couldn't do. So you never know for sure until you give them a shot.
-
Permalink Reply by John Crabbe on
-
I agree for the most part with what your saying but an officer of a Volunteer department you should also know your crew well enough to know that if you have a person like that on your truck dont assign them to something they cant handle either physically or mentally. In turn yes this person is clearly not cut out for the job but just like the original poster argues whether handicaps (not legitimate ones) disqualify people from the job it wont be easy to get rid of someone who doesnt want to go!
Stephanie,
Having been a volunteer and seeing spotty responses by volunteers and spotty training attendance and so forth, doesn't let others know what one is truly capable of. Reality is that if you have the certifications, you should be able to perform any task assigned to you. Disobeying an order because of being scared of the task, is not acceptable.
There really is no "comfort blanket" to believe the officer will know what you are and are not capable of, or comfortable with. Every scene will be different and if you are responding, you should be ready to do any job. This means if a FF is scared of heights and rescues need to be done, well guess what?, it doesn't matter if you are scared or not, the rescues need to be done.
The truck officer is responsible for the crew they are with, which means if the IC orders the crew to do something it gets done. Again, if a FF is afraid of heights and the order to the officer by the IC is to go to the roof and cut a hole, guess what, that is the job. Venting a roof is a task which may be asked, it is a task victims and other FF's need accomplished.....saying no because a FF is scared is unacceptable. The officer can't refuse the order because they know that Timmy is afraid of heights, the task needs to get accomplished.
Do you see how it doesn't matter if the officer knows your capabilities or what one can handle physically or mentally? The fireground is not the place for this. There are a ton of situations where an officer has no control of what tasks the crew can or can't do. Hell this could be a MA call and IC ordering a task done which a FF on the crew isn't comfortable with.
This is why there is training and certifications, this is why fears should be worked on on the training ground instead of accepting mediocrity. If you are on the job, be it volly or career, you are expected to perform any job, whether you are scared, physically, or mentally subpar.
-
Permalink Reply by Randy Wagoner on
-
I have been a Communications Officer for 28 years. I've taken Police, Fire and EMS classes and am a member of my local Vol FD. I am also a person with a disability and use a wheelchair. Oh my God...Horror of horrors !!! They actually let one of Those People on the Fire Department.
I am not an interior FF...I perform on scene tactical dispatching and other duties that allows other FF's to do other things.
I also happen to be one of 150 Federally trained ADA compliance consultants nationwide and have been qualified as an ADA Expert witness for civil and Federal cases across the country.
With that said I would agree with others that have posted that a person with a disability must be qualified and be able to perform the essential functions of the job...WITH or WITHOUT an accommodation. You can not just say we don't hire Those People....as a general statement...you must look at people on an individual, case by case basis. Maybe there is an accommodation available that would allow them to do the job.
I'm saddened to hear the comments about not feeling comfortable working with Those People. Obviously safety is an issue but don't rely on stereotypes and outdated thinking about what someone is able and not able to do. Look at the specific person and get the facts. 150 years ago (less than that) people refused to work with people of other races and those who had different sexual preferences because of myths and stereotypes.
Can I do heights rescue or roof work ? No! Am I a "traditional" FF, probably not, but I am able to work and contribute in hundreds of ways that you may not have even imagined....IF I AM GIVEN A CHANCE and not just discounted because someone THINKS that I can't do it.
I am happy to assist any person or agency that is interested in being ADA compliant....just drop me an email !
-
Permalink Reply by Stephanie Shirk on
-
Patti,
I am just trying to prove a point I clearly dont have any issues with women in the department. It is way to easy for a woman to claim sexual harrassment issues in a department, of course not every lawsuit would be won, But is it worth the risk.
Lets not forget what I am trying to say here, there are no legal bindings to follow orders on the fire ground.
I feel that everyone here is trying to twist everything I say.
Let me simply state if I am on the fireground and a person doesn't feel safe with me and is so sure that they cant enter a burning building with me that they have to say something to the IC then I hope to God someone noticed this before I jumped on the trucks and had previously spoken to me.
If it got as far as people on the fireground having to request not to be with me or being to scared of being paired with me they have to not follow orders then someone wasn't doing their job. Someone should attempt to train me better or talk to me about the job, the person afraid to work with me should not suffer because I am uncapable of my duties! Any good officer would stop this before it becomes a problem.
-
-
Stephanie,
Having been a volunteer and seeing spotty responses by volunteers and spotty training attendance and so forth, doesn't let others know what one is truly capable of. Reality is that if you have the certifications, you should be able to perform any task assigned to you. Disobeying an order because of being scared of the task, is not acceptable.
There really is no "comfort blanket" to believe the officer will know what you are and are not capable of, or comfortable with. Every scene will be different and if you are responding, you should be ready to do any job. This means if a FF is scared of heights and rescues need to be done, well guess what?, it doesn't matter if you are scared or not, the rescues need to be done.
The truck officer is responsible for the crew they are with, which means if the IC orders the crew to do something it gets done. Again, if a FF is afraid of heights and the order to the officer by the IC is to go to the roof and cut a hole, guess what, that is the job. Venting a roof is a task which may be asked, it is a task victims and other FF's need accomplished.....saying no because a FF is scared is unacceptable. The officer can't refuse the order because they know that Timmy is afraid of heights, the task needs to get accomplished.
Do you see how it doesn't matter if the officer knows your capabilities or what one can handle physically or mentally? The fireground is not the place for this. There are a ton of situations where an officer has no control of what tasks the crew can or can't do. Hell this could be a MA call and IC ordering a task done which a FF on the crew isn't comfortable with.
This is why there is training and certifications, this is why fears should be worked on on the training ground instead of accepting mediocrity. If you are on the job, be it volly or career, you are expected to perform any job, whether you are scared, physically, or mentally subpar.
Yes I agree with all most everything you said except that since our response is so spotty(for lack of better word) an officer should know he firefighter even better, to know who is qualified to do what and who he trusts with what.
Training absolutely should be utilized to work on fears and concerns of firefighters.
And when I mean scared I am refering to less about Heights but more along the lines of trust in other firemen or trust in oneself to complete a task.
If am a member who is truly concerned with another members abilities if I dont bring it to the table before I am on scene with said person I am a fool!
If I am a member who is horrible at using forcible entry tools and I am asked cut vent holes... if this is the first time my officer is hearing about it then I am fool.
But at the same time being a fool I still dont think I can be fired for not being able to perform the tasks asked of me.
Being a paid member most have a similar level of training with a few specialities added in.... being a Vollie not the same reassurance. We are at different levels and there is a posibility that we can get called to a call and not have the right person to do the job. But like I said and will repeat, A good officer knows his crew and can make it work without people getting hurt or killed.
-
Permalink Reply by Paul Montpetit on
-
Isn't that what "courage" is....acknowledgeing one's fear and overcoming it to accomplish the mission....? Everyone is "afraid" of something....I used to be uncomfortable at heights.....BUT, I faced this and through my own efforts overcame it...Firefighter Survival course helped a lot...seems coming down a ladder head first sort of accomplishes it in a hurry...Did I like it..? Hell no..but I did it. It goes without saying..if you are given an order you do it...any way that you can and as safely as possible but the important thing is that it gets done, then you report to the Officer in charge mission accomplished and get your next assignment....Don't like it...? Go find another sandbox to play in.
-
-
It is way to easy for a woman to claim sexual harrassment issues in a department
Where are you coming up with such things? Under such aspect, it is easy for a woman to claim sexual harassment in ANY workplace......so does this mean women should not be hired then? Absolutely not. This is why there is policy out there in damn near every workplace concerning harassment....IN ALL FORMS.
Lets not forget what I am trying to say here, there are no legal bindings to follow orders on the fire ground.
I feel that everyone here is trying to twist everything I say.
Nobody is twisting what you say, you are the one twisting things. The issue is your notions here are wrong, but you don't want to accept that answer.
No legal bindings? You aren't likely to be charged criminally for refusing an order, but ignoring orders can be grounds for dismissal. However, there can be legal bindings when it comes to a civil type of suit and your refusal of orders impacted innocent lives of which you are to protect. Meaning if you fail to climb a ladder to rescue people, or if ordered in for a FF down, and you refuse, such inactions can be viewed in a legal aspect.
Do you really want to be sitting in the witness stand with a lawyer looking at your certifications and training where it says you are able to do, this, this, that, that, etc....and the reason you didn't was because you were scared? Or you didn't want to work with so and so? You don't think those inactions can't come back and bite you? They absolutely can.
If it got as far as people on the fireground having to request not to be with me or being to scared of being paired with me they have to not follow orders then someone wasn't doing their job
Huh? The ones not doing their jobs are those saying they are too scared to work with a person.
Someone should attempt to train me better or talk to me about the job, the person afraid to work with me should not suffer because I am uncapable of my duties! Any good officer would stop this before it becomes a problem.
You have one year in the fire service and appear to be saying everything is the officer's responsibilty? Ummm, no, this is YOUR responsibility as well. If you have the training and certs, then that means you should be capable of doing the job, plain and simple, that is what those things mean, not just wall decorations. You are right though, nobody should have to suffer because of your inabilities, which is why this job isn't for everyone. It should be as much of your responsibilty to remove yourself, as it would be to compile reasons to have you removed.
If there are inabilities, or fears, or weaknesses, it is YOUR responsibility to work on fixing those and to seek assistance in fixing those. It isn't the officer's responsibility to know all your strengths and weaknesses and then piecemeal a response together, if you are responding you better be able to perform any job asked of you.
-
Permalink Reply by Art "ChiefReason" Goodrich on
-
Yes I agree with all most everything you said except that since our response is so spotty(for lack of better word) an officer should know he firefighter even better, to know who is qualified to do what and who he trusts with what.
Training absolutely should be utilized to work on fears and concerns of firefighters.
And when I mean scared I am refering to less about Heights but more along the lines of trust in other firemen or trust in oneself to complete a task.
If am a member who is truly concerned with another members abilities if I dont bring it to the table before I am on scene with said person I am a fool!
If I am a member who is horrible at using forcible entry tools and I am asked cut vent holes... if this is the first time my officer is hearing about it then I am fool.
But at the same time being a fool I still dont think I can be fired for not being able to perform the tasks asked of me.
Being a paid member most have a similar level of training with a few specialities added in.... being a Vollie not the same reassurance. We are at different levels and there is a posibility that we can get called to a call and not have the right person to do the job. But like I said and will repeat, A good officer knows his crew and can make it work without people getting hurt or killed.
There is such a thing as getting to a point of diminishing return.
If a fire department can no longer provide their district with adequate numbers of competent firefighters, then it is time to close shop and go to Plan B, which might be consolidating with another department.
But you DON'T pick and choose tasks or partners as a way to continue feeding one's desire or ego as a firefighter. It's not fair or safe to you or your community. Sorry; but that is the reality of it.
And I have to wonder if the choice of title for this thread was just the hook to open discussion on a host of other issues that have been brought to this discussion with YOU personally and your department.
Next time I want to start a discussion thread, the title will include the word "naked".
-
-
Yes I agree with all most everything you said except that since our response is so spotty(for lack of better word) an officer should know he firefighter even better, to know who is qualified to do what and who he trusts with what.
Why do you think this is the officer's responsibility? You hold the certification saying you are capable. Sure an officer may have more confidence in one FF over another, but the basic premise is to work as a team and get the job done to get home. This means if you are on the crew, you are expected to perform at the same level, irregardless of what you think are weaknesses.
Training absolutely should be utilized to work on fears and concerns of firefighters.
And when I mean scared I am refering to less about Heights but more along the lines of trust in other firemen or trust in oneself to complete a task.
THAT IS WHY YOU FREAKING TRAIN....to build that trust and confidence. The fireground is no place to worry about who you are working with or what "issues" you have with them or yourself. It is no different on a dept where you get someone who you don't really know, but if the order comes and there is a task to do, you do it. You have the same certs, you do it, you don't say I never worked with so and so or I heard bad things....I'm not working....that is a load of crap.
You forge ahead to get the job done. If there are issues noted, like a weakness in forcible entry, you note them and move on and address the issue at the firehouse and training ground. You don't say "I'm not good at it so I'm not doing it"....it isn't the officer who has to say "So and so isn't good, don't have them do it"....NO, that is a cop out. Identify the issue and work on it later, but don't quit on the fireground because you think it is OK.
But at the same time being a fool I still dont think I can be fired for not being able to perform the tasks asked of me.
That is the basis for the issues you are seeing with me and other's here, you don't seem to be grasping the notion that YOU ABSOLUTELY CAN BE FIRED FOR NOT BEING ABLE TO PERFORM THE TASKS ASKED OF YOU.....That is a reality, not some idea that it can't or shouldn't happen because you are a volunteer, etc. There are times to identify the issues and try and work on them, but in the end, if you still can't do it, you CAN absolutely be let go.
Being a paid member most have a similar level of training with a few specialities added in.... being a Vollie not the same reassurance. We are at different levels and there is a posibility that we can get called to a call and not have the right person to do the job. But like I said and will repeat, A good officer knows his crew and can make it work without people getting hurt or killed.
What do you really know about being a paid member? I thought we all did the same job, right? Sorry, such a BS excuse doesn't fly, FF cert is the same cert regardless if you are a career or volunteer. If I respond MA to our volly neighbor....all of which have at least FF1....there should be no question about abilities. They have the same certs, the techniques and tactics may be different, but there is no reason to question their capabilities.
Here on a paid dept, I can go for years without working with other members of the dept. I can be called in on OT or on a trade etc and find myself working with a crew I haven't really worked with. I can find myself working with people who I know haven't done a certain call in years, if ever. It is quite possible to get a call and not have the "right person" for the job.....That doesn't mean we refuse to go, or walk away, or wait for the "right" person to come....we have had the training (even if years ago) and the job is done.
This self serving crap about "being a Vollie not the same reassurance. We are at different levels and there is a posibility that we can get called to a call and not have the right person to do the job" is a BS excuse. This is why there are standards that are met to do the job.
In a sense look at it like military boot camp. One can get the basic training and then find themselves in a position where they don't have to use said training in years, but they are expected to know what to do. In short knowing how to fire a gun and use a gas mask are basic issues.....one can go for years without doing either, but when the time comes are expected to perform. They can't step back and say "I'm not confident enough" etc, and expect it to be all okay.....same concept here.
-
-
I am confident in myself, my department and what we do.
I am going to have to agree to disagree with you John.
I have no problem telling my officers when I am uncomfortable and when I do, They help me with the situation. They challenge me in drills which helps me learn to perform up to par on the fire ground.
I also would like to say to Patti: if I were in this situation I would not let it wait till the fireground. I would talk to my officers as soon as I see the concern.
-
Permalink Reply by Patti Walz on
-
John you can file a suit but if you loose then you have to pay everyone's fees.... It sucks, but oh well...
Stephanie You pissed me off with that statement. It never once crossed my mind that I would have to deal with sexual harrassment with the crews that I work with and I don't think it has ever crossed their minds either. We are a team, we function as a team, we discuss things as a team, we crack jokes at each other, but in the end we are a team.
-
-
I do talk with my officers since they have been in service the longest and know how to handle such things.
© 2024 Created by Firefighter Nation WebChief.
Powered by
