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Pennsylvania Town Switches To Volunteers; Chief, Career Staff To Be Laid Off
Tribune-Review
Uniontown has notified its entire paid fire department that all six members and the chief will be out of jobs by the end of the year, with volunteers to take their place.
In a letter sent Wednesday to the International Association of Firefighters Local 955, Councilman Gary Gearing notified firefighters the layoffs will be complete by Dec. 31, when the next contract expires.
City council voted Tuesday to notify the fire department of the intended layoffs. Mayor Ed Fike said the move is intended to save money.
Fike said although the fire department recently landed a $632,835 federal grant to bring the force back to its full complement of 11, council is uncertain it can legally accept the funds.
Fike said city officials have questions about how to replace those funds when the grant runs out.
Joshua Bloom, a Pittsburgh attorney who represents the firefighters, said today the union plans to fight the layoffs.
Copyright 2010 Tribune Review Publishing Company
All Rights Reserved
August 26, 2010
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by M.J. 6821 on
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http://www.firefightingnews.com/article.cfm?articleID=71668
According to the FDs own numbers their yearly budget is a little over $860,000, with %80 going for salary and benifits. Now I'm sorry but that seems a bit outrageous considering the size of the dept.
Most of their equipment funding comes from grants per the article.
What others have failed to mention too is that in 2008, 31 of the cities 83 employees were laid off and in this round they are looking to cut another 25.
To me it looks like the city is just trying to stay afloat during these hard times.
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Permalink Reply by Gregory Borg on
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Almost every fire department budget with paid staff is 80% or more for wages and benefits. I assure you they were not over paid. It is not outragous.
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Im not saying they are overpaid but I do see a problem with that %80 number with the ever changing construction trades and car technology and the amount of training that we need to go through as a fire fighter. I would want just as much money to be there for my PPE and training as well as my pay but to be realistic in these times its not possible.
So if I had a choice of either keeping up to date with equipment, training and apparatus for me as well as the the volunteers, or my check, I would say you know what, ok, do what you have to do.
I'm sorry but for me Im not in it for the money I'm in it to serve the community.
And finnally I hope that the union doesn't put so much energy into fighting it that they forget to help the volunteers with the changeover.
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Permalink Reply by John Crabbe on
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Timothy,
One does not have to venture too far to find that an 80% for wages and benefits would be the norm for any place. Even an owner/operator of their own business still pays himself and still has to procure his own benefits. Such a number is really not that outrageous and is found in any industry. The difference with such things in the public sector is because of open records and such stuff has to be disclosed, leading many people to complain about wages and benefits of public sector workers.
So if I had a choice of either keeping up to date with equipment, training and apparatus for me as well as the the volunteers, or my check, I would say you know what, ok, do what you have to do.
Have you ever held the spot of a career FF to say "do what you have to" vs fighting for your livliehood? Thing is in protective services, just because times are down or runs are low doesn't mean the potential for hazards goes away. It isn't like the private sectore where demand is down a company can layoff until production picks up again.
I'm sorry but for me Im not in it for the money I'm in it to serve the community.
And who is to say these guys aren't as well? Is it only a volunteer who is in the "business" for the community? I think not.
And finnally I hope that the union doesn't put so much energy into fighting it that they forget to help the volunteers with the changeover.
The hell with the volunteers and the changeover. It is not up to the union to worry about changing over their members to volunteers, this requirement falls solely upon the elected officials. If the volunteers were IAFF members, that would be one thing, but I don't believe they are. The union is there to look out for the betterment and protection of the members, not to worry about changing things over so guys are out of a job. This is the decision and responsibility of the elected officials to worry about how things will be changed over.
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Permalink Reply by Auxman on
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While we're all used to seeing a story about volunteer departments going to paid as a town grows and it becomes more difficult to meet the public's expectations using only volunteers, we should be surprised that the opposite happens. Many towns in various parts of the country are shrinking due to long-term economic declines and other population shifts.
Obviously it is bad news for the firefighters involved, but thats the way the world works. If you're a paid firefighter in a town of 15,000 or less, you're living on the edge right now anyway and if your town is also in decline, prepare for the future and start looking for another job cause yours ain't likely to be there long. Small towns that are getting smaller are not going to be able to support fully-paid staff.
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One does not have to venture too far to find that an 80% for wages and benefits would be the norm for any place. Even an owner/operator of their own business still pays himself and still has to procure his own benefits. Such a number is really not that outrageous and is found in any industry. The difference with such things in the public sector is because of open records and such stuff has to be disclosed, leading many people to complain about wages and benefits of public sector workers.
If any company is using %80 of their budget for wages and benefits they are probably using outdated equipment and inferior materials.
Example: Carpenter building a $150,000 house.
Wages=$120,000
Materials=$30,000
Im sorry but thats just not realistic for anyone.
Have you ever held the spot of a career FF to say "do what you have to" vs fighting for your livliehood? Thing is in protective services, just because times are down or runs are low doesn't mean the potential for hazards goes away. It isn't like the private sectore where demand is down a company can layoff until production picks up again.
No I have not but I also realise that there are a lot of other people that are being affected, this economy sucks for everyone and if you think that you are immune from it just because of your job title you need a reality check. Any city or bussiness is going to find ways to save money and when they already have a volunteer roster and the paid guys are basiccally just drivers and pump operators it's not a hard jump for them to make to go strictly volunteer. And according to every article that I have found on this subject they are looking at a total of 25 layoffs so the Fire dept. isnt being singled out.
And who is to say these guys aren't as well? Is it only a volunteer who is in the "business" for the community? I think not.
I know thats not the case, but I do see a lot of people that join because check is usually pretty nice.
The hell with the volunteers and the changeover. It is not up to the union to worry about changing over their members to volunteers, this requirement falls solely upon the elected officials. If the volunteers were IAFF members, that would be one thing, but I don't believe they are. The union is there to look out for the betterment and protection of the members, not to worry about changing things over so guys are out of a job. This is the decision and responsibility of the elected officials to worry about how things will be changed over.
Ok so let me put it like this, is the union going to say to the paid guys alright these volunteers are taking your jobs so don't help them out in anyway what so ever. Or will they say ok guys this whole situation sucks but these are the guys that you have worked with for a long time so help them out with getting ready for the changeover.
If it's the first part I have a real problem with that its saying yeah we are the brotherhood until you take my job away, then your on your own.
If its the second then thats proving what the brotherhood is all about.
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I believe that the vollys are refusing to continue their service in the department once this goes into effect, in support and respect for the career firemen.
Well that is solidarity and would create a huge challenge for the elected officials. This would definately show that there should be other ways of seeking savings than axing fire, figuring volunteers will just take over. Hopefully the community understands this and steps up to back the fire dept because there could be some very serious problems lying ahead.
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The biggest problem that is about smacking everyone in the heads but very few are paying attention to is yes people are losing their jobs and we need to feel bad for them on that, we can't let the solidarity we have to them make us forget why we are here in the first place its to fight fires and serve the people of the community.
Let me pose this question lets say you were a volunteer who refused to continue on after these guys were laid off and one of your family, or friends house burnt down or someone was killed bc you wanted to show solidarity to the paid ff's, and refused to show up to calls how would you feel and who do you think they would blame. Yeah show solidarity to your fellow firefighters but don't make the town suffer for what the elected officials are doing.
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If any company is using %80 of their budget for wages and benefits they are probably using outdated equipment and inferior materials.
Example: Carpenter building a $150,000 house.
Wages=$120,000
Materials=$30,000
Im sorry but thats just not realistic for anyone
Wow, yeah, let's just look at a single job here vs over the course of a year, even the fire dept budget is over the course of a year, come back to reality.
No I have not but I also realise that there are a lot of other people that are being affected, this economy sucks for everyone and if you think that you are immune from it just because of your job title you need a reality check.
And you don't think other FF's realize this? C'mon. Do you honestly know what type of bargaining was going on between the union and the employer to help with their situation? I don't. I can say from personal experience and speaking with other FF's, many have made concessions to help with economic woes. Everyone understands there isn't immunity, to suggest that is ludacris.
Any city or bussiness is going to find ways to save money and when they already have a volunteer roster and the paid guys are basiccally just drivers and pump operators it's not a hard jump for them to make to go strictly volunteer
Not really. Look at Orlando where they laid off several FF's so the city could go forward with a convention center. There are communities looking for concessions from employees and turn around and spend money on things like flowers in medians, city decorations and so forth. To say any city is always looking to save money is wrong too.
As for the FT FF's just being drivers and pump operators you would be wrong there as well. In fact their site states they are also FF's. Just because they may have taken the apparatus to a fire doesn't mean they would only be operators, one can not always guarantee a volly response. There are also other duties which get done throughout the course of the workday like inspections, code enforcement, building preplans and so forth.
And according to every article that I have found on this subject they are looking at a total of 25 layoffs so the Fire dept. isnt being singled out.
Never said they were being singled out, but priorities should also be looked at. Saying get rid of the career FF's and just go volunteer as a cost savings is prioritizing other aspects of the city over fire protection. Things probably would have to be done different and the city can't keep a SAFER grant if they are going to layoff, but it is possible that layoffs of some may still occur, but should not the entire paid staff of the FD. Seems the city made an ultimatum vs bargaining a solution.
Ok so let me put it like this, is the union going to say to the paid guys alright these volunteers are taking your jobs so don't help them out in anyway what so ever
Let me guess you have never been in a union either or are anti-union? The IAFF doesn't tell anyone what to do, each local is autonomous and proceeds how they wish under IAFF guidelines. This means that no other IAFF locals, members, or officials will be coming in to tell this local what to do. The union's role here is to protect the members, not worry about transitioning nor training volunteers who aren't members.
Or will they say ok guys this whole situation sucks but these are the guys that you have worked with for a long time so help them out with getting ready for the changeover.
Again the IAFF is there for the union members and isn't there to tell them how to operate nor worry about training those who will take over.
If it's the first part I have a real problem with that its saying yeah we are the brotherhood until you take my job away, then your on your own.
If its the second then thats proving what the brotherhood is all about.
How about what Captain 4 said and how it is possible the volunteers are saying they too will quit if these layoffs take effect? How does that fit in your definition?
Just because the union is fighting this doesn't mean a brotherhood is dead. It isn't the responsibility of the union to worry about training volunteers, that responsibility lies with the city.
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Wow, yeah, let's just look at a single job here vs over the course of a year, even the fire dept budget is over the course of a year, come back to reality.
Ok I have given you an example where what you said doesn't work give me one that supports your statement. Most companies try to get a profit of at least 15% so with your thinking they would only be able to spend 5% on materials and utilities over a year.
And you don't think other FF's realize this? C'mon. Do you honestly know what type of bargaining was going on between the union and the employer to help with their situation? I don't. I can say from personal experience and speaking with other FF's, many have made concessions to help with economic woes. Everyone understands there isn't immunity, to suggest that is ludacris.
Everyone is saying hey we are indispensible if you fire us the city will burn to the ground. Lay off the water, and sewer or the street guys before us. But if the water mains break how are we supposed to put out fires. If we get a blizzard whos going to plow a path for us to get there.
Not really. Look at Orlando where they laid off several FF's so the city could go forward with a convention center. There are communities looking for concessions from employees and turn around and spend money on things like flowers in medians, city decorations and so forth. To say any city is always looking to save money is wrong too.
As for the FT FF's just being drivers and pump operators you would be wrong there as well. In fact their site states they are also FF's. Just because they may have taken the apparatus to a fire doesn't mean they would only be operators, one can not always guarantee a volly response. There are also other duties which get done throughout the course of the workday like inspections, code enforcement, building preplans and so forth.
The first part I do agree with you.
As for the second part if they only have two people on on at the station at any one time how effective are they going to be at putting out a house fire or any call for that matter. Others on this post have said that none of the vollies have pump ops certification so if thats the case your taking one of the paid guys right there.
Never said they were being singled out, but priorities should also be looked at. Saying get rid of the career FF's and just go volunteer as a cost savings is prioritizing other aspects of the city over fire protection. Things probably would have to be done different and the city can't keep a SAFER grant if they are going to layoff, but it is possible that layoffs of some may still occur, but should not the entire paid staff of the FD. Seems the city made an ultimatum vs bargaining a solution.
Ok if layoffs do hit the fire dept. but not the whole dept. being shut down how do you propose they should staff it?
There is so much info thats missing from this story that no one can say for sure whats going on.
Let me guess you have never been in a union either or are anti-union? The IAFF doesn't tell anyone what to do, each local is autonomous and proceeds how they wish under IAFF guidelines. This means that no other IAFF locals, members, or officials will be coming in to tell this local what to do. The union's role here is to protect the members, not worry about transitioning nor training volunteers who aren't members.
Again the IAFF is there for the union members and isn't there to tell them how to operate nor worry about training those who will take over.
Ok so unions don't tell members to strike? Unions do tell their members what they want even to go as far as saying who the union wants you to vote for so don't say that doesnt happen.
How about what Captain 4 said and how it is possible the volunteers are saying they too will quit if these layoffs take effect? How does that fit in your definition?
If thats the case then ok its showing the brotherhood goes one way but if thats not the case where a majority are going to stay will the brotherhood be returned?
Just because the union is fighting this doesn't mean a brotherhood is dead. It isn't the responsibility of the union to worry about training volunteers, that responsibility lies with the city.
Ok, maybe not the unions responsibility but how about the paid ff's how will they handle it?
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John C., Very well said. I think a point you made is very important. It is the Cities responcibility to staff, train and equip the fire department. The union is there to represent the employees. It again proves the saying "the employeing class and the working class have nothing in common".
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Ok I have given you an example where what you said doesn't work give me one that supports your statement. Most companies try to get a profit of at least 15% so with your thinking they would only be able to spend 5% on materials and utilities over a year.
The point is that employee costs will be great despite the field of work being done. When looking at things across the board there are many similarities when it comes to pay and benefits as being a cost. Issue in the public sector is they aren't looking for a profit are they?
Everyone is saying hey we are indispensible if you fire us the city will burn to the ground. Lay off the water, and sewer or the street guys before us. But if the water mains break how are we supposed to put out fires. If we get a blizzard whos going to plow a path for us to get there.
Everyone? Who is everyone? That is the point of balance now isn't it? Do you really see FF's saying to layoff public works and so forth first? Point is there should be other places to look before making cuts to public safety. No one is saying the city will burn down if you get cut, but realistically fire protection and police protection are requirements a municipality has to provide. Thing about plowing is that could be privatized, same with garbage, sewer and water isn't always a part of the city and in many places is a seperate entity from the city control. I'm not advocating getting rid of public works either here, just there are other places to look first.
If they only have two people on on at the station at any one time how effective are they going to be at putting out a house fire or any call for that matter. Others on this post have said that none of the vollies have pump ops certification so if thats the case your taking one of the paid guys right there.
I don't know how they make things work and that isn't up to me to figure out. The point is you are trying to go off on a point that they only drive and operate the pump. Thing is there is MA and so forth where manpower may be needed, not the apparatus. As for running 2 on a rig, take a look at many depts out east in states like Mass, etc. There isn't much a crew of 2 will be able to do and no crew should staff that way, but unfortunately that is reality in many places.
Ok if layoffs do hit the fire dept. but not the whole dept. being shut down how do you propose they should staff it?
There is so much info thats missing from this story that no one can say for sure whats going on.
Exactly there isn't enough information to go by, even if you wanted to play Devil's Advocate. I also don't need to propose how staffing should go either, this isn't my dept to wory about. I don't know the political climate, I don't know the community response and so forth. There are ways of staffing without having to can the entire FT staff.
Ok so unions don't tell members to strike? Unions do tell their members what they want even to go as far as saying who the union wants you to vote for so don't say that doesnt happen.
Public safety depts can not strike here in the states. In fact there are many fire depts who are working without contracts and have been doing so for years because an agreement can't be made. Public safety can go to arbitration when an outside third party weighs options and makes a decision in favor of either the union or the employer.
As for the union saying who to vote for, please don't play so stupid. Don't act as though union people are voting because they are told who to vote for, that is a truly ridiculous and very opinionated response often spewed about from anti union type political pundits.
Politics is an unfortunate reality in the fire service. The IAFF endorses those national candidates who they feel would best represent the interests of the union members. State FF organizations often do the same at the state level and local unions at a local level. An endorsement does not mean that the union members have to vote for the candidate. Members have the freedom to exercise their opinion and vote for the candidate that best represents their own personal ideals. AT NO TIME IS ANYONE BEING TOLD WHO TO VOTE FOR.
How about what Captain 4 said and how it is possible the volunteers are saying they too will quit if these layoffs take effect? How does that fit in your definition?
If thats the case then ok its showing the brotherhood goes one way but if thats not the case where a majority are going to stay will the brotherhood be returned?
That is the problem when one only has a one sided view of the fire service. You being a volly doesn't know what it is like to be a career person so your opinion on a brotherhood seems quite simplistic. You are under the impression that there should be assistance to transition, what is there to teach? Here is the inspection forms, here is the preplans, here is the rigs, etc. Teaching driver operator is a responsibility of the dept and is typically a state course which has to be taught by certified instructors. Chances are the FT's can't just teach. As for the brotherhood, when you are out of a job, you really aren't in the brotherhood are you, if those getting canned have a sense of bitterness, so be it. What your opinion of brotherhood is doesn't really matter, now does it?
Just because the union is fighting this doesn't mean a brotherhood is dead. It isn't the responsibility of the union to worry about training volunteers, that responsibility lies with the city.
Ok, maybe not the unions responsibility but how about the paid ff's how will they handle it?
How about asking them how they will handle it? How I would handle it would probably be different. Why should someone getting layed off feel the need to be responsible for training or assisting with a transition? So it can be a touchy feely thing about brotherhood? Sorry, but brotherhood doesn't pay the bills when you just lost your source of livlihood. If the FT's are asked to do something etc while in the process, then they are still employees, that is how it is done, just don't expect any above and beyond.
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