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Alternative duties for explorers.
Because as an explorer I cannot perform extrication or internally fight structure fires. Would it be a good idea to excell my training in maybe HAZMAT, medical response, rope rescue, etc.? That way even though I might be a weakness in some situations, I could also be a strength in others. I thought of this because I enjoy learning as much as I can when it comes to the fire service and I think becoming a more valuable asset to the department would be a great idea. Any input on this would be great.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by TOMMY on
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OUR EXPLORERS DRILL/TRAIN ON EXTRICATION... YOURS SHOULD ALSO... I DONT MEAN ONCE A YEAR.. IM TALKING AT LEAST QUARTERLY. THERE'S TONS OF TRAINING THAT YOU COULD BE INVOLVED IN TO PREPARE YOU FOR YOUR TRANSITION FROM EXPLORER.. UNDER 18.. TO A POST 18 YEAR OLD WITH FULL FFI TRAINING. THE WHOLE IDEA IS TO GET YOUR FEEY WET... WITH A LOT OF TRAINING.. GET AND KEEP YOU MOTIVATED AS A MEMBER WORKING YOUR WAY TO FF AS YOU TURN 18. OUR PROGRAM IS PROVIDING OVER 200 HOURS OF ACADEMY/FFI TRAINING THIS YEAR TO OUR YOUNG EXPLORER MEMBERS ...AND I GOES WITHOUT SAYING.. THEY ARE LOVIN IT!!...
THESE HOURS DO NOT COUNT THE REGULAR DRILLS AND MEETING THAT THE GUYS ARE EXPECTED TO ATTEND.THEN YOU BECOME OPERATIONAL AND CONTINUE ON IN YOUR TRAINING TO BECOME A SEASONED FIREFIGHTER IN YOUR COMMUNITY. MAKE SURE YOUR EXPLORERS ARE TRAINING AS OFTEN AS POSSIBLE. TRAIN.. AND TRAIN SOME MORE... AND HOPEFULLY LEARN THE SAFE WAYS TO DO EVERYTHING... "EVERYONE GOES HOME"... SHOULD START FROM DAY ONE... IT SHOULD NOT BE A NEW CONCEPT TO ANY DEPT. MEMBER... SIX MONTHS ON THE DEPT. OR 30 YEARS...
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Permalink Reply by Jack/dt on
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Matt,
As a junior you are prohibited by the BSA Learning For Life rules from doing anything that exposes you to danger or risk. And Haz-Mat and rope rescue are definitely too risky and prohibited. Even if your program is more of a departmental junior/cadet one the restrictions still apply
Your primary responsibility is to learn, in school and in the explorer program. The laws governing how minors may be used and what they may do are determined by OSHA and Federal Child Labor Laws. In other words, your department is highly restricted in how they may "use" you.
Many departments do use juniors/explorers as adjunct firefighters which is both illegal and risky. And while some do allow juniors et. al. to perform basic on-scene duties such as changing cylinders and pulling tools, the risk of having minors on or near the fireground outweigh any practical benefit.
Depending on the response to your post, you may find that many think that you can and should be used in a wide range of fireground duties, others will (agree with me and) say that it should only be observational, at best.
The best thing, besides your academic studies would be to pursue your EMT certification. Many states do allow 16-17 year olds to perform EMT duties but again, rolling up on an MVA is not something that minors should be exposed to.
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AHHH.. THE SAFE PASSAGE OF TURNING EIGHTEEN... 18 AND THEN YOU ARE SAFE AND "COVERED" ON THE FIREGROUND.!!
HAVING EXPLORERS ENGAGE IN LIMITED DUTIES... UNDER COMPETENT SUPERVISION AND LEADERSHIP. WITHIN A FRAMEWORK OF TRAINING AND EDUCATION IS A POSITIVE THING FOR MOST COMMUNITIES THAT HAVE THE COMMITMENTTO IMPLEMENT SUCH A PROGRAM.
YOU HAVE OBVIOUSLY NEVER WITNESSED THE PRATICAL BENIFITS OF A WELL TRAINED AND SUPERVISED EXPLORER POST OPERATION AT AN EMERGENCY SCENE.
YOU HAVE MISSED OUT ON SOMETHING SPECIAL. THE BIGGEST COMPLAINT AMONG OUR GENERAL MEMBERSHIP ABOUT EXPLORER PARTICIPATION IN THE DEPARTMENT IS THAT THE OLDER GUYS WISH WE HAD A PROGRAM YEARS AGO HATTHEY COULD HAVE BEEN INVOLVED IN!!
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Tommy,
What makes you think that the only way to become a firefighter is to have been a junior/cadet/explorer? That is why there are academies. Furthermore what makes you think that a minor has to be exposed to the risk of the fireground to facilitate their passage from 'child' to 'adult'?
I don't disagree that having an explorer program is a good thing, for the kids, department or the community. But explain to me how you or your department will justify a LODD of a minor? There are reasons that a child can't drive until the age of 16 and even then now severely restricted as to when, where and with whom they can drive. Nor are they allowed to operate heavy equipment, power tools or engage in other dangerous activities.
Utilizing juniors et. al. on the fireground, in whatever "limited" capacity raises the question of exactly how competent the supervision and leadership is. Minors should NOT be used, they are there (if at all) to observe. Again, OSHA and Federal Child Labor Laws severely limit what a minor can do. To believe otherwise shows an indifference to the health and well being of a minor.
And if your "program" is a legitimate BSA program then you are most likely violating most if not all of the rules.
How obvious it may or may not be as to what I have or haven't observed is incidental, explorer posts are, according to the Learning For Life Program not allowed to do anything other than observe. To presume differently because it suits the needs of your department or your've chosen to ignore the rules and risks exposes you and your department to liability. Scary if you think that's a fair trade off.
I'm sure many of the 'older guys' wish there had been such programs when they were younger, and I'm sure many wish they had made different decisions when they were younger as well. It sounds good to say that but in reality we all like to wish things were different and that we had better or more opportunities. Wishing for it doesn't change today's realities.
Note - It's much easier to read when everything isn't in all caps.
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Permalink Reply by Matt Moore on
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I understand your concerns on this, my post is more of the wide range of fireground duties sort. Possibly have other routes besides HAZMAT and rope rescue that I could take?
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Matt,
I don't believe there are any fireground duties suitable for explorers. That being said, after the fire is out and overhaul performed, if the site is deemed safe (by the Chief, Safety Officer, et. al.) then a walk through of the building could be possible, to show the effects of fire, any issues during the attack, fire ignition and spread. But these should be academic in nature.
Have someone in your department put together a Building Construction training program. Visit residential and commercial construction (with appropriate permissions and supervision) to see and understand how buildings are constructed.
Google Dave Dodson The Art of Reading Smoke. Search around there are PPT available for download. With the assistance of the department a good introductory class on reading smoke could be put together.
There are a lot of things that you can do in training to prepare you for firefighter I but none of it is going to approach the level of firefighter I training, simply because you are underage.
Even IF you pursue your EMT, it is up to your state as to how you can function in terms of patient contact and care. Mostly your concern should be your schoolwork. Although there are many who disagree with me. Good luck with it all.
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Permalink Reply by John Crabbe on
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YOU HAVE OBVIOUSLY NEVER WITNESSED THE PRATICAL BENIFITS OF A WELL TRAINED AND SUPERVISED EXPLORER POST OPERATION AT AN EMERGENCY SCENE.
Because in reality, this should never be allowed to happen. Such programs are not there to supplement manpower or to be utilized on an emergency scene, despite how many depts either ignore the rules or establish their own.
There is no doubt the positives of explorers, juniors, etc and the ability to promote the fire service at a younger age, but that is the limits (or should be). Yes, there is stuff explorers and the like can do in a controlled TRAINING environment, but make no mistake, and actual emergency scene is NOT a training environment.
I also started as an explorer and the role then, as it should be today still, is the role of an observer on an emergency scene.
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Would it be a good idea to excell my training in maybe HAZMAT, medical response, rope rescue, etc.? That way even though I might be a weakness in some situations, I could also be a strength in others.
Matt, I agree with Jack here, you biggest concerns should be with being a kid and school than to worry about the fire service. There are avenues you can take on your own to better yourself and increase your knowledge, but keep it limited to that. Anything you learn about should be done so in a controlled environment and should not be utilized at all in an emergecy manner. What I mean is there are some valuable training you can learn and will benefit YOU as you advance towards being a full FF, but such training should not be taken on with the idea or notion you will be utilized as an emergency responder before being recognized as a legal adult.
You can learn first aid, CPR, defib, etc. You can do self study from the NFA or learn more about HAZMAT, rope rescue, etc, you can take a class at a local climbing wall whatever, but don't get the idea you will be utilized as a responder until you are of legal age. It is good to be eager and wanting to learn and to do the job, but there are rules in place for a reason and until you are of legal age, there is no reason for you to be operating in any way, shape, or form as an emergency responder.
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JACK... DUDE... YOU ARE MISSING OUT ON PREPARING THOSE THAT WILL SOMEDAY REPLACE PEOPLE LIKE ME AND YOU. STARTING A GROUP OF INTERESTED YOUNG MEN AND WOMEN (AGES 15-21)TOWARDS A GOAL OF DEPARTMENT MEMBERSHIP , DISTINGUISHED BY A RECORD OF SERVICE TO THE COMMUNITY OF UPTO 3-4 YEARS UNDER THEIR BELT WHEN THEY TURN 18, COUPLED WITH THE OBVIOUS ADVANTAGES OF ALL THE FIRE SERVICE TRAINING AND EDUCATION ALONG THE WAY IS A NO BRAINER.
TO BE SURE... GUIDELINES MUST BE IN PLACE.. AND LIBILITIES MUST BE MANAGED. BUT TO PAINT THE WHOLE THING AS THEY HAVE NO PLACE ON THE FIREGROUND... IS, WELL A LITTLE OVER THE TOP. THERE ARE NUMEROUS ROLES THEY CAN BE TRAINED FOR AND ARE OFTEN UTILIZED IN CAPACITIES THAT ARE VERY IMPORTANT TO A DEPARTMENT.
THE BIGGEST ADVANTAGE WE HAVE REALIZED IS IN ADDITION TO THE EXPLORERS OBTAINING ALL SORTS OF LIFE DEVELOPMENT SKILLS, THEY CONTRIBUTE TO THE MISSION OF THE DEPARTMENT IN WAYS THAT ARE NEARLY IMPOSSIBLE BY OTHER MEANS.. AT THEIR AGE...
EXAMPLE... OUR 16 AND 17 YEAR OLDS CAN AND DO PARTICIPATE IN A WHOLE LIST OF STATE FIRE ACADEMY SPONSERED CLASSES THAT WILL ADVANCE THEIR SKILLS AND KNOWLEDGE AS A EXPLORER AND A FIREFIGHTER. THEY ARE CURRENTLY OFFERED 19 DIFFERENT CLASS THAT TOTAL OVER 300 HOURS OF FIRE ACADEMY TRAINING. THESE CLASSES ARE ATTENDED BY THE EXPLORERS RIGHT ALONG WITH THE REGULAR FIREFIGHTERS OF ALL AGES.
THE BASIC FIREFIGHTER CLASS IS 90 HOURS AND INCLUDES OVER TWO THIRDS OF THE TRAINING FOR THE EXPLORER TO BECOME IFSAC FIREFIGHTER I CERTIFIED. MOST OF THEM PUT IN A TOTAL OF ABOUT 160 HOURS OF TIME TO COMPLETE THIS CLASS WHEN YOU INCLUDE PERSONAL STUDY TIME. IF THEY TAKE MOST OF THE CLASSES OFFERED DURING THEIR 3-4 YEARS AS AN EXPLORER... THEN WHEN THEY TURN 18 THEY WILL ONLY BE SHY ABOUT 100 HOURS OF TRAINING TO COMPLETE THEIR IFSAC FIREFIGHTER II CERTIFICATION. BEING OPERATIONAL AT 18 AND BEING ONLY A FEW MONTHS FROM FFII IS NO SMALL FEAT. I KNOW CAREER DEPT. THAT DONT REQUIRE ENTRY LEVEL PEOPLE TO HAVE THAT MUCH WHEN THEY HIRE.
THEY HAVE THE POTENTIAL TO COMPLETE... AT THEIR STATION OR THE STATE FIRE ACADEMY, ALL THE TRAINING NECESSARY TO BECOME OPERATIONAL ON THE FIRE GROUND BY THE TIME THEY ARE EIGHTEEN YEARS OLD. TALK ABOUT GETTING A JUMP START ON TRAINING COMPOTENT FIREFIGHTERS!!!! SURE .. THIS IS NOT ALL THE TRAINING THEY NEED.. BUT IT GETS THEM OFF TO A GOOD START. THIS TRAINING DOES NOT INCLUDE THE REGULAR MONTHLY TRAINING DRILLS THAT ARE DONE BY THE DEPARTMENT. INVALUABLE EXPERIENCES ARE GOING TO HAPPEN WHEN YOU GET THEM PARTICIPATING IN DRILLS.
THE FIRE ACADEMY CLASSES ARE TAUGHT BY ADJUNT FIELD INSTRUCTORS AND INCLUDE BUILDING CONSTRUCTION, HAZARDOUS MATERIALS OPERATIONS LEVEL TRAINING, NIMS-ICS, P.P.V, FOUR LEADERSHIP CLASSES, STATE OF THE ART FIREGROUND SIMULATION TRAINING, ARSON DETECTION AND INVESTIGATION ECT... ECT... BUT THE BIG ONE IS THE BASIC CLASS THAT GETS THEM IFSAC FFI CERTIFIED... AND YES.. WITH MULTIPLE LIVE FIRE TRAINING EVOLUTIONS IN A FOUR STORY TOWER RIGHT ALONG WITH OTHER FIREFIGHTERS THAT RANGE IN AGE FROM 16 TO 55 YEARS OLD.
YEA.. THE HOSE, NOZZLES, HOSE LOADS,DRAGS,CARRIES, LADDERS,PORTABLE EXTINGUISHERS, FIRE STREAMS, FIRE BEHAVIOR, RESCUE, RIT, MAYDAY, SELF RESCUE, COMMUNICATIONS, OPERATING AS A TEAM ON THE FIREGROUND, CREW RESOURCEMANAGEMENT, SIT. AWARENESS, ADVANCING DA LINES, SEARCH AND RESCUE, VICTIM REMOVAL, PPE, VERTICLE AND HORIZ. VENTILATION, CPR. FIRST AID, VENT, ENTER, SEARCH....... ALL THAT BASIC STUFF IS COVERED... AND THEN THEY ARE EVALUATED BY OBJECTIVE INSTRUCTORS THAT ROUTINLY FAIL THOSE THAT CANT CUT IT.UPON SUCESSFUL COMPLETION.. THEY RECIEVE IFSAC FFI CERTIFICATES.
NOT TO MENTION THE REGULAR STUFF THAT INCLUDES SOME HANDS ON DRILLS... OH.. DID I MENTION THREE TIMES A MONTH... NOT BULLSHIT BUISNESS MEETINGS AND SOME TRUCK WASHING DETAILS... SOME REAL TRAINING. THEY ALSO ARE INVOLVED IN AUTO EXTRICATION, DAVE DODSONS ART OF READING SMOKE, NIMS 100 AND 700, MOST OF THE EVERYONE GOES HOME TRAINING PACKAGES, MUTUAL AID JOINT DRILLS, FLAMMABLE LIQUIDS AND FOAM, A TRIP TO THE STATE FIRE AND RESCUE CONFERENCE, LP GAS FIREFIGHTING, RESPONDING TO UTILITIY EMERGENGIES, INCIDENT SAFETY OFFICER CLASS, PERSONALLY OWNED VECHICLE EMERGENCY RESPONSE CLASSES, AND ABOUT A DOZEN OTHER TRAINING CLASSES THAT ARE PRESENTED WITH OVER 70 PERCENT ATTENDANCE AVERAGES.
NOW I WONT GO INTO THE TRUCK WASHING(4 CUSTOMS) THE BUILDING CLEANING OR FIRE PREVENTION PROGRAMS. MAYBE I SHOULD ALSO NOT MENTION THE TWO COMMUNITY PROJECTS THAT REQUIRE THE EXPLORERS TO PUT IN ABOUT 400 MAN HOURS TO COMPLETE. THAT STUFF IS IMPORTANT... BUT NOT AS IMPORTANT AS GETTING THEM SOME SKILLS THAT WILL ACTUALLY KEEP THEM ALIVE WHEN THE BECOME FULLY OPERATIONAL AROUND 18-19
YEARS OLD.
NOW AS FOR OPERATING ON THE FIRE GROUND... THEY MAY BE ASSIGNED TO ASSIST WITH NUMEROUS ACTIVITIES... THE BASIC LIMITS OF WHAT THEY DO IS DEFINED BY NOT OPERATING IN AN IDLH ATMOSPHERE. THE REST IS AT THE DISCRETION OF THE IC... SUCH AS PULL LINES, OPERATE PUMPS, ESTABLISH SUPPLY LINES, MAKE HAYDRANT CONNECTIONS, PERFORM OVERHAUL UNDER LIMITED SITUATIONS, PACK HOSE, DIRECT TRAFFIC, ADMINISTER FIRE AID AND CPR, RUAL WATER SUPPLY OPERATIONS, FIREFIGHTER REHAB, ACCOUNTABILITY, SALVAGE AND OTHER SUCH ACTIVITIES. ANOTHER RULE OF THUMB IS.. IF THEY WERE TRAINED ON IT AT THE FIRE ACADEMY... THEY MAY BE ASSIGNED TO IT A AN EMERGENCY... OF COURSE WITH THE EXCEPTION OF OPERATION IN AN IDLH ATMOSPHERE, OF WHICH... THEY HAVE THE ABILITY TO READILY IDENTIFY THROUGH THEIR TRAINING.
DONT UNDERESTIMATE THE POTENTIAL BENIFITS OF HAVING AN ACTIVE EXPLORER POST .. IN SOME... NOT ALL... DEPARTMENTS. IT CAN BE A CHALLENGE TO MANAGE JUST LIKE THE BALANCE OF THE REST OF THE FIREFIGHTERS... BUT IT OFTEN PROVES WORTH IT!
NOT HAVING THE EXPLORER PROGRAM WOULD KILL OUR RECRUITMENT AND RETENTION EFFORTS.. IT SIMPLY WORKS........ IF YOU DO... AFTER ALL.. WE PROVIDE A VITAL SERVICE TO THE COMMUNITY... ALL THE WHILE MAINTAINING AN ALLMOST UNHEARD OF... ISO CLASS 3 RATING... THAT'S RIGHT AN ALL VOLUNTEER ISO CLASS THREE RATING.. NO PAID PEOPLE... FOR THE PAST 5 YEARS... AND GET THIS.. WITH OUT COUNTING THE EXPLORERS AS MANPOWER.
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MINORS ALL OVER THIS COUNTRY ARE ENGAGED IN ALL SORTS OF "UNSAFE ACTIVITIES" THAT ARE EXPRESSLY APPROVED OF BY THEIR PARENTS. THE LIST IS ALMOST ENDLESS..
THE PERMISSION FORMS THE STATE USES ARE EXPLICIT AND IN DETAIL. THE LEGALS HAVE BEEN COVERED. LIMITED ASSIGNMENTS THAT ARE DEEMED REASONABLY SAFE ARE PERMISSIBLE.
ARE THE POLICE EXPLORERS NEVER TO RIDE IN A PATROL CAR?
ARE THE AIR EXPLORERS NEVER TO FLY IN A PLANE AS A PASSENGER UNTIL THE TURN 18???
IT GOES ON AND ON..
YOU CANT SEE A SITUATION BECAUSE YOU HAVE NEVER TRIED IT OR WITNESSED IT PERHAPS...
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Permalink Reply by Roy Walker on
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I would love to hear how insurance is obtained for under age firefighters to do anything more than observe.
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Alrighty, since this was blown a little out of proportion with what explorers can/can't do, should/shouldn't be doing, I'm gonna re state it a little... "Because as an explorer (who IS allowed to respond to emergency calls with my department while on the apparatus) I cannot operate hydraulic rescue tools, or internally fight structure fires. I DO have my Standard First Aid/Adult, Child, & Pediatric CPR/ AED. I WILL have my Instructor's certifications for all of those in about two weeks. Then I am going on to work on EMT- First Responders certification. (I have checked the state policies, and talked to MULTIPLE officers and my EMT-FR WILL be recognized in the fire service) I have kept up with ALL of my schoolwork for my ninth grade year while also attending my dept.'s training meetings, a neighboring dept.'s training meetings, and helping cover the local dirt track during the races. I feel that I should have no problem also training on another topic. I enjoy learning everything I can, and always wish to learn more. I don't have to learn on HAZMAT or Rope Rescue, those are just two i thought of. Suggestions on other things I could train on would be great. All replies are great, but bickering back and forth on what explorers should and shouldn't do doesn't help me with this question. I'm just looking to better myself in the fire service... that's it...
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