The Social Network & Community JUST for Firefighters
Go In or Stay Out
We're having a discussion in the area bout a recent house fire. After dispatch fire board upgraded to a working alarm. Now this is were it gets complicated. There were reports that everyone was out fo the house. A fire police went onscene with a house "fully involved" and the responding Chief told FB this would be a defensive operation.
The first reponding unit was a rescue with no water. They said they were told by nieghbors that a lady was seen going in "earlier" They attempted to enter the dwellingwith a hose line and ended getting a little burnt.
There is the question should they have attempted the rescue without a hoseline and even if they did with the fire load would it have been smart to enter the house.
My feeling is that while we are the people who are supposed to keep the public safe there is only so much we can do. I love my kids and really like my wife and want to go home to them. When do we as responders say a rescue attempt is unsafe?
Replies to This Discussion
-
Permalink Reply by Andrew Richmond on
-
I read the opening statement and broke it down this way. Hope my rambling makes sense......
1) Units are en route to a structure which was dispatched as working with no occupants. How many and what type of units are responding and how far out are they?
2) Fire Police arrive and reports this as fully involved. My thoughts are if you have Fire Police than you are a department that sees fire on a regular basis. To me this means that the responding units including the Fire Police are probably manned with experienced firefighters.
3) The responding Chief went defensive prior to his arrival. It sounds like this department has more than one Chief, which again tells me experience is not an issue here.
4) With the exception of the Fire Police, Rescue arrived before other responding units to include the Chief. The rescue unit was advised by a bystander that someone had been seen entering the building.
I will make the assumption here that this "Rescue unit" is a true Fire Department Rescue, verses a medical/ambulance style rescue, that is staffed with the elite of the FD whose job it is to do exactly what the name implies, Rescue. Again I think that experience is the factor here, the officer as well as the members on the rescue are going to be personnel that have come up thru the ranks, are used to making quick decisions and taking calculated risks as well as assessing info from by standers.
Even though a Chief was en route I would have to defer to the Rescue officers opinion on this one, he or she was on scene and had to make the call to enter for the purpose of a search.
As others have stated here, the way that I learned it years ago a true primary search is a quick and dirty sweep above or below the fire looking for survivors. The search is done without a hose so that the firefighters are not slowed down or burdened in their efforts. Budget cuts have reduced manpower and its understandable that a line should go in first to protect the egress and start extinguishment, but I have no problems searching without a line if the conditions are correct for it.
If my above assumptions are correct I would be willing to bet a cold one that even though the Chief officer had gone defensive they took little or no offense from the Rescue officers call.
Okay thats my take on this one, feel free to poke holes in my assumptions and thoughts.
Stay safe.
-
Permalink Reply by Richard Armstrong on
-
Hoy FETC can I get a link to this Chris naum gallery of pictures sounds like interesting viewing.And I personally would go in without a line but my S.O.P.'s do not allow me because yes it is a pain in the arse trying to do a primary search with a charged line 100%.That's not up to me but my butt would be in a sling if I did but if I knew I had the chance to save a life i probably would do it anyway if I knew there was for sure the slim chance and deal with the consiquensis later.
-
-
Well said Robert.An excellent point of view and something that should be thought about by I.C. for sure I will mention it at practice to my Guys if you do not mind me using your words!
-
Permalink Reply by Robert Owens on
-
Of course not.....feel free. Look up the article as well its a pretty good read.
-
Permalink Reply by Francis L. Cook Jr. on
-
Question Bro:
Did they have a hose line or not?
Given situation...Officer knowing his crew...the given situation and senerio...sounds like a command decision that his/her people agreed with. Damn if you do, damn if you don't. You know nobody does it better the US. NOBODY! IAFF.
-
Permalink Reply by Ben Waller on
-
I spent a lot of my career working Rescue and Truck companies whose only water supply was a 2.5 gallon water can extinguisher. We routinely searched without a hoseline over the fire, operated on the roof without a hoseline, and searched large areas in zero-viz with a search rope but no hoseline.
I'm not opposed to searching without a line - when it's indicated.
If the fire conditions were such that Command indicated a DEFENSIVE strategic mode, then no one should enter the building, particularly without orders from Command.
If the Survival Profile (thanks, Chris Naum) indicates unsurvivable interior conditions, then there's no rescue to be made, no matter what the neighbors tell you.
I've done searches for "my baby is in there" or "I didn't see granny get out" more times than I can count. "Baby" usually ends up being a poodle, a cat, a parrot, a doll, or a fatality. Granny usually ends up being found drinking coffee with the neighbors across the street.
Listen to Command. If he says "DEFENSIVE", he means it.
-
Permalink Reply by james culp on
-
Unsafe is a hard discussion to have and is all due to one's safety tolerances. Maybe a better question would be the risk vs. reward situation. If the structure really was "fully involved" is there any reward as far as life or even property conservation which is lower on the list. It is hard to not arm chair quarterback I know it is my greatest vice but hopefully the crew that attempted the rescue is trained and if not then train/explain. Also if they got burnt ask them what would happen to a person without PPE. As for the part about not having a hoseline is in my mind not really an issue, it does provide some protection but if needed for that there is no rescue besides the crew would have left the line inside if a snatch was made and not had that protection when exiting.
-
-
If Command has ordered a defensive operation, it doesn't matter if the rescue company had a hoseline, or an experienced crew, or if the officer knew his crew's capabilities.
They should not have entered the structure.
-
-
Exactly. Thanks, WP.
-
-
"No primary search should be done with a hose line."
I disagree. Engine companies do a lot of primary searches while advancing a hoseline to the fire.
If there is only one company on scene in an offensive situation, you're mostly searching civilian egress routes while you pull hose through those same egress routes.
Having the line slows the search down, but if you don't have the manpower to assign primary search and fire attack as seperate functions, then the attack team is going to search as they go toward the seat of the fire.
-
Permalink Reply by Marvin Hawk on
-
Couldn't resist the temptation....These are from the review for an Upcoming National FF1 test here in NY.
Review Question #3:
Fire department’s standard operating procedures should be established in the most commonly excepted order of fire ground priorities which is:
A. Life Safety, Property Conservation, Fire Control
B. Property Conservation, Life Safety, Fire Control
C. Fire Control, Life Safety, Property Conservation
D. Life Safety, Incident Stabilization, Property Conservation
AND
Review Question #1:
Life safety, incident stabilization, and ___________ are the three most important organization duties for fire departments to pursue.
A. Building inspections
B. Public Information
C. Property Conservation
D. Resource Management
Some how we keep forgetting that Life Safety not only includes us , but selfishly should start and end with us.
-
-
The question isn't if it is unsafe or safe. There is no such thing as a "safe" entry into a burning building.
The question should be "Is the entry appropriate." That is a judgement call made by Command.
If Command dictates a Defensive operation, then any entry made at that point is not only inappropriate, it is a violation of orders from Command as well.
- ‹ Previous
- 1
- 2
- 3
- 4
- Next ›
© 2024 Created by Firefighter Nation WebChief.
Powered by
