The Social Network & Community JUST for Firefighters
Freedom Group Protests Cross at Charleston Firehouse
JEFFREY COLLINS
Associated Press Writer
COLUMBIA, S.C. - A group that supports the separation of religion and state wants a cross removed from in front of a Charleston fire station that city officials say honors nine firefighters killed battling a furniture store blaze.
The fight over the cross extends from a battle the Freedom from Religion Foundation had with the city last December when the group complained about a nativity scene in front of the same fire station. Officials added secular decorations, including snowmen, to comply with the law.
Most of the decorations came down by the new year, but the cross stayed up, the city saying it was now a memorial to the firefighters killed in June 2007, said Rebecca Markert, a lawyer for the foundation.
The foundation didn't buy the explanation, sending a letter last week to the city threatening to sue if the cross is not removed because it violates the U.S. Constitution by endorsing a specific religion. The group also said for the past five years the same cross had been removed at the same time as the Christmas items.
"We believe it is a sham to say it is now part of a permanent memorial when before it was being put up and taken down in December as part of Christmas," Markert said Tuesday.
The cross rests near a stone memorial with the names of the nine Charleston firefighters killed as they fought a blaze at the Sofa Super Store.
Lawyers for the city told officials it was a legal display because it is a secular emblem of death.
"The message communicated by the cross is clearly one of honoring fallen firefighters and not of furthering a religious purpose," lawyers for the city said in a news release.
The letter from the foundation gave the city a May 14 deadline to take down the cross.
Related
Copyright 2009 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.
Associated Press Writer
COLUMBIA, S.C. - A group that supports the separation of religion and state wants a cross removed from in front of a Charleston fire station that city officials say honors nine firefighters killed battling a furniture store blaze.
The fight over the cross extends from a battle the Freedom from Religion Foundation had with the city last December when the group complained about a nativity scene in front of the same fire station. Officials added secular decorations, including snowmen, to comply with the law.
Most of the decorations came down by the new year, but the cross stayed up, the city saying it was now a memorial to the firefighters killed in June 2007, said Rebecca Markert, a lawyer for the foundation.
The foundation didn't buy the explanation, sending a letter last week to the city threatening to sue if the cross is not removed because it violates the U.S. Constitution by endorsing a specific religion. The group also said for the past five years the same cross had been removed at the same time as the Christmas items.
"We believe it is a sham to say it is now part of a permanent memorial when before it was being put up and taken down in December as part of Christmas," Markert said Tuesday.
The cross rests near a stone memorial with the names of the nine Charleston firefighters killed as they fought a blaze at the Sofa Super Store.
Lawyers for the city told officials it was a legal display because it is a secular emblem of death.
"The message communicated by the cross is clearly one of honoring fallen firefighters and not of furthering a religious purpose," lawyers for the city said in a news release.
The letter from the foundation gave the city a May 14 deadline to take down the cross.
Related
Copyright 2009 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.
Replies to This Discussion
-
Permalink Reply by Ben Waller on
-
Generalizations are rational?
Taking someone to task for not arguing both sides of an issue isn't apoplectic?
It might be just interpretation as you say, but that interpretation certainly seems logical from how you've couched some of your responses.
"Oh yeah, you were arguing your christian viewpooint."
No, I wasn't. I was arguing my Constitutional viewpoint.
Thus, my interpretation of your posting as apoplexy when you insist that I'm arguing "my christian viewpoint" when I clearly am not arguing this from the perspective of any single religion or non-religion.
-
-
Here is some evidence that military graves in National Cemetaries are not private property.
The legislation discussed here regards military graves "even if" they are on private property. That strongly iimplies that graves in national cemetaries are not private property.
More evidence...
"The land now owned and operated by the U.S. Army once belonged to the scourge of the Union, Confederate General Robert E. Lee. " Arlington National Cemetary "owned and operated" by the U.S. Army - not private property in any sense of the word.
-
-
No, you didn't, but the implication in the original post was not the same as your explanation above.
The "two crossed sticks" reference was pretty snarcastic, which doesn't tend to make the explanation exactly fit the reference.
Your reference also seemed to be pretty specific in the context of what you were responding to. Individual peace doesn't seem to really fit that context, but then again, I'm not a mind-reader.
-
Permalink Reply by John Crabbe on
-
Ben,
The issue here is the graves discussed indicate the individual who is occupying that grave religious beliefs. It is about the person, not about the govt trying to impose some type of universal religion or lack thereof. Along with that the symbology of such graves is not standardized as suggested when Penryn asked "what type of non-religious symbol will they impose on all those graves". It isn't going to happen, nor does it apply here.
The individual is still guaranteed their own beliefs, even if they are "property of the govt". Military bases, ships, and so forth offer religious rights and ceremonies to all religious beliefs out there. The servicemember has the right to practice their own religious beliefs without the military or govt telling them what they can and can't worship. The individual has their own personal space as well, while owned by the govt, can display personal effects. This is also why a tombstone at Arlington also depicts the symbology of a person's religion and is by no means the govt endorsing a single religion. The other reason this debate doesn't apply is because other symbols are present.
The dog tags are required federal ID, and the people who wear them are technically considered federal property while they are active service members, so you're talking semantics. Those dog tags are displayed by active military service members while on duty on federal property, so the issue is the same as the Charleston FD cross, regardless of who technically owns the dog tags.
A military ID card is required to be with the person, but not the dog tags and if going to most bases or ships, you will find most servicemembers don't wear them. Combat is the reason for the dog tags. You stated dog tags are the property of the military branch which issued them. Did you know the servicemember keeps the dog tags, but the ID card has to be given back? The dog tags are there to indicate the person's name, branch, service number and religious affiliation, they are the property of the individual.
The govt does not bar anyone from practicing their beliefs, nor does it endorse one religious symbol over another, hence why the individual interred in a place like Arlington has the symbol of their own beliefs. The govt recognizes that there are individual beliefs and it is those beliefs as to why the symbol is on such tombstones.
A fire station is not a cemetary, nor is it a grave of an individual with personal beliefs, a cross in front of it can be considered an endorsement of one religion. A grave indicates the individual's beliefs and is not endorsing one religion above another.
-
-
For those of you who believe that it is prohibited to display a Christian symbol on public property, while on duty, etc., would this apply to a firefighter who has a St. Florian tattoo that is visible while in uniform?
How does that apply here as well? It is up to the department if they will allow tattoos to be displayed by their dress code. Secondly, the tattoo depicts the individual, not the whole organization.
-
-
"...the tattoo depicts the individual, not the whole organization."
So does the cross.
Both are religious displays on duty, on public property, established by the individual, with no public funds involved.
-
-
"It is about the person, not about the govt trying to impose some type of universal religion or lack thereof. "
That is exactly my point about the cross at the Charleston fire station.
"The individual has their own personal space as well, while owned by the govt, can display personal effects. "
That is exactly my point about the cross at the Charleston fire station.
"The govt does not bar anyone from practicing their beliefs, nor does it endorse one religious symbol over another, hence why the individual interred in a place like Arlington has the symbol of their own beliefs. "
That is exactly my point about the cross at the Charleston fire station.
"The individual is still guaranteed their own beliefs, even if they are "property of the govt"."
That is exactly my point about the cross at the Charleston fire station.
The fact that one is a cemetary and the other is a fire station makes absolutely no difference. Both are religious displays on public property. In the case of the tombstones at Arlington, the vast majority are Christian and they are funded by federal tax dollars. The Charleston firehouse cross is not publically funded.
You still have not satisfactorily answered my question about why it is supposedly OK to interfere with the free exercise of the Charleston firefighters' religion while they are alive but to allow the dead to show an identical symbol, both on public property.
I couldn't have made a more eloquent case for alowing the Charleston firehouse cross to stay in place than the one you just put forth.
-
-
Ben,
In simpliest terms, a tattoo, tombstone, necklace, whatever, depicts the individual beliefs of the person. Whereas the cross in front of a fire station can be construed as depicting the beliefs for all.
-
Permalink Reply by Roy Walker on
-
Dear Mr Borg I sincerely hope that you speak for the brothers in your fire house with their consent if not you step far out on a branch that may be cut out from under you. No body is forcing anyone to bow before the memorial only to pay their respects as they see fit.
-
Permalink Reply by Vic Silverfish on
-
Ben - by your logic, putting the cross on public property, the government is endorsing a religion the "truly believe" - stark violation of the establishment clause. The fire-fighters at that station don't have the same rights to use public property as they do their private property...I would absolutely defend their right to place a similar monument in their yard or car - both of these are protected by the "free exercise" clause.
Playing silly buggers by now calling it part of a memorial is the shameless bit. They're looking for loopholes because they know the law is clear on this. That is shameless: Dis-honouring the tragic loss of 9 brave men to play politics.
-
-
JH - By having a Cross out front, it implies endorsement of a particular religion. some hypotheticals:
1) My religion strictly prohibits icons, so that means I can't work at that station...
2) The cross is heretical to me, my rights to not have the government offend my beliefs are violated by this display...
3) The guy who cuts the grass and maintains the grounds is not Christian...by maintaining the cross, he is compelled to "venerate" it...a clear violation of his rights to be free from religion
I could go on for hours...this is the reason the law generically states that there can be no religious displays. The myriad of issues that come up as a result of it make fairness and equal protection almost impossible.
-
-
wrong! When it's part of the grounds, it becomes part of the station, and part of the local government as well.
© 2024 Created by Firefighter Nation WebChief.
Powered by
