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Freedom Group Protests Cross at Charleston Firehouse
JEFFREY COLLINS
Associated Press Writer
COLUMBIA, S.C. - A group that supports the separation of religion and state wants a cross removed from in front of a Charleston fire station that city officials say honors nine firefighters killed battling a furniture store blaze.
The fight over the cross extends from a battle the Freedom from Religion Foundation had with the city last December when the group complained about a nativity scene in front of the same fire station. Officials added secular decorations, including snowmen, to comply with the law.
Most of the decorations came down by the new year, but the cross stayed up, the city saying it was now a memorial to the firefighters killed in June 2007, said Rebecca Markert, a lawyer for the foundation.
The foundation didn't buy the explanation, sending a letter last week to the city threatening to sue if the cross is not removed because it violates the U.S. Constitution by endorsing a specific religion. The group also said for the past five years the same cross had been removed at the same time as the Christmas items.
"We believe it is a sham to say it is now part of a permanent memorial when before it was being put up and taken down in December as part of Christmas," Markert said Tuesday.
The cross rests near a stone memorial with the names of the nine Charleston firefighters killed as they fought a blaze at the Sofa Super Store.
Lawyers for the city told officials it was a legal display because it is a secular emblem of death.
"The message communicated by the cross is clearly one of honoring fallen firefighters and not of furthering a religious purpose," lawyers for the city said in a news release.
The letter from the foundation gave the city a May 14 deadline to take down the cross.
Related
Copyright 2009 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.
Associated Press Writer
COLUMBIA, S.C. - A group that supports the separation of religion and state wants a cross removed from in front of a Charleston fire station that city officials say honors nine firefighters killed battling a furniture store blaze.
The fight over the cross extends from a battle the Freedom from Religion Foundation had with the city last December when the group complained about a nativity scene in front of the same fire station. Officials added secular decorations, including snowmen, to comply with the law.
Most of the decorations came down by the new year, but the cross stayed up, the city saying it was now a memorial to the firefighters killed in June 2007, said Rebecca Markert, a lawyer for the foundation.
The foundation didn't buy the explanation, sending a letter last week to the city threatening to sue if the cross is not removed because it violates the U.S. Constitution by endorsing a specific religion. The group also said for the past five years the same cross had been removed at the same time as the Christmas items.
"We believe it is a sham to say it is now part of a permanent memorial when before it was being put up and taken down in December as part of Christmas," Markert said Tuesday.
The cross rests near a stone memorial with the names of the nine Charleston firefighters killed as they fought a blaze at the Sofa Super Store.
Lawyers for the city told officials it was a legal display because it is a secular emblem of death.
"The message communicated by the cross is clearly one of honoring fallen firefighters and not of furthering a religious purpose," lawyers for the city said in a news release.
The letter from the foundation gave the city a May 14 deadline to take down the cross.
Related
Copyright 2009 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Ben Waller on
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...and remembering that that Amendment does not stop with the Establisment Clause helps, too.
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Permalink Reply by WestPhilly on
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That's what I would have said if I were answering for you, Ben.
And about those Authorized Emblems: I didn't see anything for Agnostics. I'm thinking a ? would be appropriate.
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John, one other thing. I've been a firefighter and firefighter-paramedic since I was 17, so no, I've never served in the military. However, my family has a long tradition of military service including my father's service in the Army, my brother's service in the Air Force, several cousins who served in the Navy, and two relatives currently serving in the Marine Corps.
One of those current Marines is my son, who is a Marine officer. I understand the concept of military service and what it means very clearly.
I was also a family escort at the Charleston 9 memorial service and the family whom I escorted made no secret of their Christian religious affiliation or of their deceased husband/father's same belief.
I understand that a fireground LODD sacrifice is no different than a combat LODD sacrifice, too.
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Thanks, for the vote of confidence, Philly.
I would have replied earlier, but I was recalled to cover during a busy Friday night that included a working hazmat incident.
Thanks for having my back in the interim.
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Thanks, Philly.
I like the question mark idea, too.
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Oh, and Jack...
Peace, brother, however you may find it.
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Permalink Reply by Derek R. on
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"... but not all the comments have been in support of, or shown respect of our fallen."
Ken, I would like to see an example of this. I,too, have read all pages up until this one, and will continue on, but I fail to remember any example of lack of respect or lack of support for the fallen Charleston firefighters.
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Dang, I'm almost afraid to give an opinion here. but, it is just that, an opinion.
So, the CFD was asked to remove christmas decorations from their house. And in turn they decided that the cross was not a christmas decoration anymore, and that it is now a memorial piece. I'm having a problem with that. In, MY opinion, what should have been done was to remove said cristmas cross, and put up a different memorial cross. Kind of like (forgive me) re-gifting. That's just how I see it. But what really matters is how the CFD sees it. And if they want to keep the cross as a memorial, then all the power to them. If they want to use a cross to memorialize fallen members, so be it. It's not like they are saying, "our brothers have fallen, so everyone has to believe in this or that". It's THEIR way of having a memorial. Just happens to ba a cross.
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Permalink Reply by Jack/dt on
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Ben, I'm quite aware of symbolism but thanks for pointing it out, just in case I missed it or failed to understand it. I stand by my statement: If two crossed sticks can bring about peace (did I say what kind of peace or for whom? No,.. I didn't think so) I'm (still) on board.
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Permalink Reply by John Crabbe on
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Ben, look at the very simple, little point here, the GRAVES are private, they are the graves of those who died in service to the country. In a sense, consider Arlington like that of a neighborhood, the neighborhood is PUBLIC, but the homes (graves) are private. That is the reason there will never be a reason to make one non-religious display for a tombstone as Penryn has suggested, and you supported.
Dog tags are indeed private because they belong to the servicemember, they are paid for by the servicemember taken out of their pay at boot camp. Same thing with the uniforms, those too are private property of the servicemember. Much like the fire service, they are required to maintain a level of uniform, but when an item needs replacing (including dog tags) it is the responsibility of the servicemember to acquire that on their own dime. These are not given back to the military when one leaves the military.
On the contrary, there are at least two common non-religious symbols are authorized on military tombstones. There are authorized Atheist and Humanist symbols as shown in items 16 and 32 in the Authorized Emblems table on Arlington National Cemetary's web page.
Your own words and research shows that OTHER religious and non-demoninational symbols of servicemembers are displayed alongside those of crosses. That is the issue at hand here isn't it? This whole problem is about Charleston displaying a cross.....are there other religious symbols also displayed along side that cross? They are at Arlington now aren't they. Hence the reason that such a suggestion that religious symbols would be taken off the graves of servicemembers in Arlignton does not factor into this debate.
The debating of religious symbology of the servicemembers in Arlington doesn't apply here because we are talking about servicemember graves. Are they talking about the graves of the Charleston firefighters or the claimed memorial? Is the FFRF asking the crosses be removed from the firefighter's graves as suggested by Penryn? No, they are talking about a cross outside of a firestation.
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Ben (hard as hell keeping up with all of the replies in various places),
If you were to re-read Eric's reply you would have seen that his viewpoint was that the 'majority' viewpoint was "normal". My comment on his spelling and placement on the normality level was a jab back at him for implying that I was abnormal. Where were you in setting him straight? Oh yeah, you were arguing your christian viewpoint. See...you're reading and looking to find fault specifically with those with whom you disagree, I haven't seen you 'call out' anyone for comments that agree with your own viewpoint (I could be mistaken, it's nearly impossible to keep up with the various tangential arguments taking place here.)
Please show me where I have been apoplectic? (Outside of the medical definition you are aware that the other definition is "A fit of extreme anger; rage;) My responses have been calm, rational and thought out (granted some somewhat sardonic but still...), not at all unlike yours. Yet I haven't called you apoplectic (mainly because I haven't seen it in you; that you see it in me might say more about your interpretation than anything I may have said).
I'm doing good here, no hard feelings towards anyone and like Greg enjoy the give and take of a calm, rational, intellectual discussion.
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John, none of those arguments hold water.
The graves are not private property - they are part of Arlington National Cemetary, their upkeep is funded by the federal government, access is controlled by the federal government, security is provided by the federal government, and the federal government confiscated the property from the original owner. If I'm wrong on this, please provide some evidence.
Arlington already has two-non-religious tombstone options as my previous link shows, so your "never" has already occurred.
The dog tags are required federal ID, and the people who wear them are technically considered federal property while they are active service members, so you're talking semantics. Those dog tags are displayed by active military service members while on duty on federal property, so the issue is the same as the Charleston FD cross, regardless of who technically owns the dog tags.
Further, the City of Charleston doesn't own the cross, so if it's OK to display dog tags with religious symbols on a military base, it's OK to display a religous symbol in a firehouse yard.
As for the "other" service gravestones, the gravestone choice is determined by the individual service member's wishes. The Charleston FD cross is exactly the same - it is the choice of the individual firefighters who display it. No firefighter of any other religious persuasion - or non-religious persuasion has come forward to ask for any other symbol to be displayed. The lack of another religious display in Charleston would only be pertinent if such a display had been requested and refused - and no such request or refusal has been made.
The debating of religious symbology of the servicemembers in Arlington exactly applies, because we're talking about displaying religious symbols on government property. It also begs the question again - why is it supposedly OK to display religious symbols in a federal installation after you are dead? Hint: it's not, the Constitution doesn't make that distinction. In fact, the Consitution doesn't provide rights for dead people, but it does for live ones, which adds even more emphasis to the Charleston FD cross being an acceptable display of an individual's religious preference without showing government endorsement of religion.
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