Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Stephen Walsh on April 19, 2010 at 5:51pm

I am the President of the International Fire Photographers Association as well as a Professional News Photographers. This subject has been a topic of discussion between photographers and public safety personnel. Here is the law, nobody can tell a photographer to stop taking photos, threaten to confiscate camera equipment, digital memory, film etc. Also you can not threaten to have a person arrested for taking photos at a scene because the event is in public, on a public street and the public has a right to know. Doing such things can lead to civil law suits against police officers, firefighters, etc and there have been plenty of cases where the photographer has been awarded damages because they were in effect "harassed" by mostly police officers.

Now here is when a photographer can be arrested. Crossing established fire lines, crime scene lines or being a nuisance at a scene (being their taking photos does not qualify as a nuisance). Photographers may NOT make images public that are inside private property, meaning inside a house or building, or inside an ambulance.

I have been around the fire service my entire life and have dedicated my profession to documenting emergency service personnel at work. There is a right way and a wrong way to photograph incidents just as there is a right way and a wrong way to build relationships with photographers. To threaten a photographer at a scene that is there to document YOUR work is just shooting yourself in the foot. Many of these photos are used to promote the jobs of Firefighters, Police Officers and EMS. They serve to save your jobs during budget crunches and also serve to educate the general public about what you do.

Permalink Reply by Steve Roth on April 20, 2010 at 10:28am

I always make it a pointto shoot the entire scene of every incident, from the fire cops, the firemen, EMS and the patients. The patients incident is happening in public, which no longer protects them from privacy. Why do I shoot the pictures I do you may asK? I shoot for profit, my website sells pictures to anyone who wishes to purchase them. I also provide web ready images with my logo on them to the fire departments involved in the incidents for thier web pages, training devices etc. Police departments call me in search of some picutres for their reports as well as the victims themselves.

The one thing i have to say is, use discretion on what you post for the pulic to see. I try to always blur a victims face on my webpage, and their car registration plate, in the world we live in why help the crooks. I hear from people all the time what I do is wrong, well, thats their opinion. Shooting patients may be morally wrong in some peoples eyes, but it is not illegal provided like Steve Walsh stated, you are in public locations. The very people who complain about victims being photographed are some of the very people standing along the road staring at a crash scene, or watching the people fall from from the World Trade Center over and over again, never thinking twice how they feel its wrong to photograph victims. It only becomes wrong when they know the person apparently.

I do live and shoot scenes in a small community, I do try to respect victims of crashes or rescue operations, but I dont elimnate them just because someone things its wrong. I also, try to grant the responding departments wishes as well, as they provide me 100% access to their scenes, no yellow tapes for me, so this could end if I went against their wishes for the most part. Dead bodies under sheets may also be used by the responding coroners

www.911-photography.com

Permalink Reply by Stephen Walsh on April 20, 2010 at 11:39am

I agree with using discretion. Even for non injured victims, pointing a camera in their faces to me is wrong. What I call publishing "excessive gore" is also wrong. Using a long lens at a scene provides you with the capability of shooting emotional subjects without being obtrusive. I also always make my photos available to victims of fires, accidents, etc for whatever needs they may have free of charge. Unfortunately, emergency incident photography is based solely on terrible things happening to good people. We can not change that. What we can do as photographers is to make use of our images to benefit both public safety personnel and citizens. Photography provides a great source of information and often better than words alone. Many of my photos have been used for "lessons learned" training. As a fire photographer, news photographer or whatever, the main characteristics you must possess is compassion, discretion, willingness to put your images to work for the benefit of all involved ans sometimes for no money. We have a direct impact on saving lives through our photography and I much rather do that than be in this business to make a lot of money. Yes, I make money doing this but there is no way I would refuse to give an image away for free if it was going to help someone.

Permalink Reply by john on April 20, 2010 at 4:47pm

it ok never get in the way

Permalink Reply by Steve Marshall on April 20, 2010 at 8:55pm

I've had fire officers ( mostly volunteer) who have told me I couldnt shoot a scene because the victims face was visible....and the HIPPA laws forbid it. I throw out the BS flag when they do that. I tell them to either prove it or back off. THERE IS NO SUCH PROVISION IN THE HIPPA LAWS that affect emergency scenes...or photographers. This is used either through ignorance by the fire officers...or using it deliberately to keep me from shooting a scene. I do avoid shooting close ups of victims whenever possible but sometimes, they are the story and it cant be avoided. I've been involved with one law suit that I brought against a VFD that went WAAAY out of their way to eject me from public property so that I could not show how bad they had screwed the pooch in a rescue attempt. I made sure my camera continued to roll while the confrontation happened. All I had to do was call a first amendment lawyer when I got home, who wrote a letter to the department demanding an explanation before we filed....and I got a letter of appology and a check in the mail within a month ( I had to split the check with him 50/50) but it was enough to pay for my new video camera! Be aware of your rights but in most cases, its not worth a confrontation on scene. Keep the camera rolling and if its a real problem, go talk to the chief the next day and work it out.

I echo what Stephen Walsh is saying...but let me add something....he says nobody can tell a photog to stop taking pictures or threaten....etc....well they DO threaten and in some case succeed in taking a camera or memory stick...or force photogs to erase pictures.....but its not legal. They can do it only if you dont know your rights and let them get away with it. Far too many firefighters and cops have an an inflated idea of what their legal powers are. Sometimes, they have to be reminded that there is this thing called the Constitution that supercedes their power. Ok Ill put the soap box away for a while and shut up.

Permalink Reply by Steve Roth on April 21, 2010 at 10:43am

This thread is awesome. At least once a month I get into conversations with firemen and especially chief offers regarding this topic.
Shooting in a major metropolitan city, you wont have these issues nearly as much as you do in small town America where everyone knows everyone.
I always just tell the people Im disgussing this with, you cant stop me from shooting what I want, provided its a public incident, but then I follow it up with, I know you can limit my access though, meaning they can make thier "scene" rather large enough to limit what can be seen. I try to keep a good working relationship with my towns fire department, as I was a member there for two decades, but I also dont let them dictate what I can and cant shoot and post to my site.
Believe me, they want us there as much as we want to be there, every fireman wants to see themselves doing the job, its our nature. There is only two pictures of my days running alarms, and I decided to not let that happen again to a whole new generation of firemen, plus it brings me back to the action through another love of mine-Photography.

Permalink Reply by Nicholas Relich on April 24, 2010 at 7:28pm

I only take pics of the rigs and the fire and the PD FD

Permalink Reply by Russ on January 12, 2012 at 8:53am

well said sir...hope others read it

Permalink Reply by Ron Briggs on January 31, 2012 at 11:27am

I take photos of all aspects of a call except for patients. I photograph the addresses, bystanders (in case a fire is arson), units on scene, personnel (pd, fire, ems), the main scene itself.  Civilians are told to stay across the road from the scenes for everyones safety but they can shoot what ever they want from there.

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