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Overcome by CO
Posted on the Secret List....
Two Salina (KS) Fire Department members were hospitalized and numerous other people were treated at the hospital last night after being overcome by carbon monoxide poisoning in a townhouse. A civilian is also reported dead from this run.
The civilian victim was reported to be unconscious and not breathing when SFD firefighters were called to his home around 1900 hours Wednesday.
A woman who had been trying unsuccessfully to reach the man called the SFD when she went to his home and discovered him unconscious. She was sickened by carbon monoxide when she entered the townhouse, but was able to get out and call for help.
However, an SFD paramedic and firefighter who went into the house upon arrival were quickly overcome, and they collapsed. The Captain and FF/driver who were on the apparatus with them had to go in and pull them out.
Additional help was requested, and before the night was over, a total of seven Salina Fire Department members ended up being treated at the hospital for elevated carbon monoxide levels. A Salina police officer also was treated, he said, as was the woman who called 911.
The hospital reported that one person had died-would not identify but it was likely the initial victim.
The SFD paramedic and firefighter who were the first to enter the townhouse were admitted to the hospital for treatment. The source of the carbon monoxide was a car that had been left running in an attached garage. The car had run out of gas, and the battery also was run down, but SFD Fire Marshal Williams said the engine was still warm.
There are sigle gas CO meters that cost about $200 that can be clipped to your EMS bags. Why are we not using these? Or, how many of you are? We have the Industrial Scientific Rattlers, but most of the guys don't use them. Our shift has discussed clipping them to the bag on any "sick" call or unconcious call to see if we accidentally come across a CO situation that may go unreported. We need to protect ourselves better.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Mike Schlags (Captain Busy) Retd on
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Question: What does AEIOU TIPS stand for?
Altered Mental Status (AEIOU TIPS)
A
Alcohol
E
Endocrine
Electrolytes
Encephalopathy
I
Insulin
O
O2
U
Uremia
T
Toxidromes
Trauma
Temperature
I
Infection
P
Psych
Porphyria
Pharmacy
S
Space occupying lesion
Subarachnoid hemorrhage
Stroke
Sepsis
CBz
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Permalink Reply by Joe Kvacik on
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As the wife of one of the firefighters treated for CO poisoning on this call (signed into my husband's account), I am disappointed to read the comments posted here. First of all, the newspaper article posted here was put online before a lot of the details were known. Additionally, there are some errors in the report. In fact, there have been several more articles since this original one, clearing up a lot of the foggy details.
The call came in as an elderly patient, unconscious. The caller made no indication that she was feeling ill. (In the most recent article, the caller was interviewed. She stated that she suffers from lung disease and assumed what she felt was simply from the trauma of finding her friend in the state that he was in.) There are, obviously, many reasons that an elderly man could be unresponsive. The first, and probably biggest, glaring error in these reports is that the first two firefighters passed out and had to be rescued. What actually happened was that they became light-headed and left the house. The other firefighters were in the house at the same time, but had not been there as long. When the first two left the building and had such symptoms, a CO monitor was pulled off a truck. It indicated that CO was present, and everyone (including the caller and the patient) exited the house immediately.
Should they have had CO monitors in the EMS bag and/or on the cot? Yes, but they didn't. I'm sure that they will have learned from this experience and will invest in more portable ones than just the ones they carry on the trucks. They were not acting recklessly or brazenly. They were simply doing their job and came up against an unknown hazard. Hind site is always 20/20.
The fact that they have so little support and are being nit-picked over iffy reports in forums like these is appalling--where is the brotherhood here?
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Joe, I apologize for my post reflecting anything negative toward the Salina firefighters, that was not my intention. My initial point, looking at calls that turn out to be hazmat in nature was my intended focus and your incident, with very sketchy information was a good example of CO calls and how things can go wrong.
This is a firefighter forum where people learn from what happens to other people. Having you take the time to shed accurate light on what happened makes this learning experience a valid one and I thank you for taking your time to share your thoughts here.
With no visible signs or indications that this was a hazmat incident... this is a photo of the involved structure. None of us would have responded any differently on this medical call.
When I was researching what actually happened it became all to obvious that the responding firefighters were snookered by an automobile that was found with the keys in the ignition in the 'on' position and an empty gas tank. No one knows for sure how long the vehicle had been running but one report placed CO levels at 100x over PEL levels. The house was completely charged with incredibly high levels of CO, and it makes a lot more sense with the firefighters immediately leaving the building because your body will let you know pretty quick if things are not right. Even short term exposure to this type of incident requires medical monitoring and high flow oxygen therapy, something that everyone involved in the incident needs to be evaluated for immediately. To not do so would mean that basic EMS protocols were not followed.
To think that firefighters would enter this residence that was reported as a medical emergency with full PPE and SCBA's is ridiculous. What is not a bad idea that you brought up and I want to reinforce is having a CO portable monitor on the ambulance gurney or in the med bag or what ever you take into the call. One has to assume that in cold weather there is a possibility of CO issues from appliances affecting the health of what may have been a compromised patient to begin with. Having the monitor on hand, would both provide a public service without drawing any attention as well as protect you and your crew.
Additionally, I would like to ask if once CO was determined to be in the structure whether positive ventilation fans were set up to ventilate the structure and provide fresh air for removal of the body and rendering the structure safe.
While this incident may have proven fatal for the elderly victim, no firefighters were permanently injured and everyone went home. With your clarification and comments, what was a mystery is now pretty straight forward and folks reading this post in the future will learn from the Salina firefighters experience. This is what the FFN is all about, learning from others.
Please don't interpret these discussions as anything other than learning from one another. There is a brotherhood and it is very much alive.
Fraternally,
CBz
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Captain Busy,
I appreciate your positive comments. My husband (again, I'm signed into his account...eek!) and his co-workers could have easily died, so when we read some of the negative comments posted here and other sites, it is difficult to take--particularly since a lot of the details presented were/are not facts.
I do know that positive ventilation fans were set up to clear the house of CO. This was after my husband went to the hospital, so I don't know all the details, but I do know that it was done. The original patient was removed from the house when the second set of people exited the house.
I should note: my husband thought he was okay. He did not experience the dizziness like the others, but his blood gas levels weren't as high, either. (Still not anywhere close to a safe range, though!) When he got to the hospital with the patient, he was tested and immediately put under oxygen therapy and closely monitored--as were everyone who was in the house and a couple who were near the entrance.
Again, I appreciate your taking the time to comment further on this. Salina firefighters have been reading this and thought about commenting, but didn't. I'm glad I did--even if I catch hell for it. :)
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Mrs. Kvacik,
I am honored to have had the pleasure then of talking to a brother firefighters wife who took the time to set the record straight. I don't think you will take much flack for your efforts here.
Just for the record, you might note one of my posts in the local Salina newspaper where I blasted folks for being so damn rude about their firefighters. You just can't look at this incident and make any judgements unless its through the eyes of the first responders. Simply put, you had to be there to fully understand the dynamics.
I hope folks take the time to read through this post and learn from the Salina firefighters experience and refresh their knowledge concerning CO exposure, signs, symptoms and how to use CO monitors. It's all about going home the next morning... :D
My best to you and yours,
CBz
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Captain Busy,
After you replied to my initial post, I thought about asking if you were the same Captain Busy who replied to the Salina Journal post. It was much appreciated!
I agree about this being a learning experience. After all, that's what life is all about; learning and growing.
Thanks again. Oh, and I hope you are right about not catching too much flack. I'll find out tomorrow when my husband is back on duty. LOL!
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Permalink Reply by Ben Waller on
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Do you ventilate the house before you do that "quick walk through"?
If not, you should consider it.
If you let the ambient air from the outside in, then you know what the atmosphere is, too.
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CBz, remember that the pink flush is a LATE sign of CO poisoning, and that it's not always present in the victims.
It can be difficult to pick up, especially in dark houses with the power off where a charcoal grill has been used as emergency heat, etc.
It is also almost impossible to see with patients who have dark skin, who are wearing lots of clothing, etc.
It's better to use SCBA and an atmospheric monitor to pretect ourselves. What the patient breathed 10 minutes ago usually can't hurt us. What we're breathing now can and will hurt us.
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One additional note - if the ventilation fans used were gasoline-powered positive pressure ventilation fans (PPV) they can actually increase the CO levels in a structure that is not on fire.
We did some testing with PPV fans and atmospheric monitors, and found that the fans can actually create dangerous CO levels in structures that didn't initially have any CO at all.
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remind me to send you a video of the new Tempest blower that operates on regular house current... no CO potential and a nice way for blower ventilation fans to be adopted by more fire departments in the future... the demo I saw encouraged using these new fans for confined space rescue as well.
using electric powered fans on an incident involving a charged house with CO makes sense... it works well using traditional positive ventilation techniques... room by room.
excellent point Ben bringing attention to the use of gasoline powered blowers and the inherent dangers of CO production.
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Permalink Reply by Jason Brooks on
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Mrs Kvacik,
As the orginator of this post, I am sure that you have noticed that this was not meant to tear at your husband or any of his crew. I simply posted this as a learning incident to make sure that others did not fall into the same infortunate trap. You may also notice, that I posted a second post early on stating this point again.
I am glad to hear that none of the firefighters will suffer from this incident and I hope they return to work as soon as possible. Please understand, that this was posted very early on purposely. The sole purpose was to get others thinking of what could happen to them also, very easily.
Wish the men well.
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I did see that the original reason for your post was not to bash the guys on the call, and I appreciate that. There were other responses that really bothered me (and the Salina firefighters), but I hope that since some of the details are cleared up, it can be seen that our guys were not acting recklessly and were simply taken by surprise by an unseen 'enemy'.
Thanks for your additional post--I agree. Everyone can learn from this. If one other crew is protected from a similar incident, then your post was certainly worth it. I know that it has raised CO awareness in our community, even with the general public.
~Mrs. Kvacik ;)
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