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Situation question....what do you do...?
It is 1000 hours on a weekday...you get a call for an alarm activation....short handed (Vollie) and you respond in an engine with an operator, 2 firefighters and yourself in the Officers seat. Upon arrival you have heavy black smoke showing and immediately call for a second alarm...Now what...? If you send the Firefighters in on an initial attack how do you cover the 2 in 2 out..? Can you utilize the Pump operator..? If you do...and God forbid something happens how do you justify it on paper.....? Looking for input....OSHA 1910.134 has regulation but sort of foggy in interpretation....Thanks..........Paul
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Loyd Dittfurth on
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I would call for the second alarm and do my scene size up. Have my firefighters and operator string the initial attack lines and prepare for ventilation. Once I had done my 360 they should have that done. I would pack up aswell as my operator for the 2 out. As they make entry I would just be hoping that that second due would show up shortly.
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Permalink Reply by Rusty Mancini on
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This is a tough situation for many rural departments. Fortunate for us, it's our automatic mutual aid departments that are close by to be assign to that position. I know not every department has that luxury. I also know the thoughts of " well it's only a room and content fire, it will be OK" but there's always that potential for something to go wrong.
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Permalink Reply by Rob on
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Well, obviously there are hundreds of what if's and variables and many questions that could asked for this kind of scenario, but I will offer some thoughts based solely on the info given and a few priority 'questions' that will help decide a course of action...
Operator will take water supply duties and start making connections.
Officer will begin a complete scene size up.
Firefighters can prepare attack lines and start forcible entry where appropriate. Maybe throw some ladders if time permits.
Is there evidence that the house may be occupied? Consider VES style operations with careful risk vs gain assessments.
Can the fire be attacked from the exterior to begin with?
With a next arriving company 2-3 mins out I would seriously consider beginning an interior attack if it looks gettable, otherwise suck it up and wait for backup.
If the size up reveals immediate rescues need to be made, then throw all the resources at that (within reason).
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I've heard about this thing called fast attack mode. Basically you make entry with your crew and tell dispatch that you are making entry and operating in fast attack mode and the next in apparatus will have command.
On this scenario I wouldn't do that. Not with heavy black smoke already showing. I would do my 360 and see if I can locate the seat of the fire through windows. While I'm doing that my crew would be finding somewhere to vent. By no means will we be forcing entry just yet. I would also have to think about establishing a water supply as well. I don't agree with the operator being utilized. I think someone should be on the pump at all times. He can help get the attack lines ready but back on the pump ASAP. But I think this one would be a good candidate for VES as soon as resources become available.
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Permalink Reply by Paul Montpetit on
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Thanks for the input....I am taking Fire Officer I and this is one situation we had to deal with...I think that whatever you did there would be this "gray" area that you may have to answer to after the incident...
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Permalink Reply by Michael C. Harrison on
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First, is it a house or a building?
Is the house or building occupied? Cars in the driveway? Store/building open for business?
If I thought there was a possibility of people trapped I would search the place
and unless your dept. sends an entire alarm on an alarm activation (1st alarm assignment) I would fill that assignment before calling for a second alarm. The reason being, if your dept has SOP's for 1st alarm companies....and you call for a second from the jump, there could be massive confusion from some second alarm companies arriving ahead of 1st alarm companies.
There is really just too much info missing to give a proper answer to this question.
I will say that the 2 in 2 out is trumped by people trapped.
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OK Michael...I can buy that...you need to understand that rural areas during the daytime run short...people have fulltime jobs and cannot always leave...that's why I said heavy black smoke drop the 2nd alarm...If you don't have help at the first one don't wait and see....get people moving...Now...I also agree if you suspect people inside you have to do what you have to do....but God forbid if someone gets hurt....too many lawyers out there that know their way around NFPA, OSHA, PESH (NY) regulations and standards....failure to follow them and someone gets hurt they can shut your Firehouse down.....Thanks for the input...this is what I am looking for...stay safe............Paul
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Permalink Reply by Joe Stoltz on
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Paul, I re-typed this from an old document that I believe came from the NYSAFC or OFPC years ago. It is an excerpt from a "model accountability SOP" that was included with the recommended OSHA initial and recurrent training topics. It may be of help.
4. The Incident Commander shall assure that a minimum of three (3) fire fighters are assembled prior to implementing operations inside the structure involved unless, in his professional judgment, immediate action must be taken to prevent the loss of life or serious injury. The following guidelines have been developed to assist the Incident Commander or individual members in making this decision:
• A victim in need of immediate rescue is visible, or is heard calling from inside the structure or involved space; OR
• Citizens on scene advise you that they know or are reasonably certain that an occupant is still inside the structure or involved space and you have a high degree of confidence in this information; OR
• There is some other evidence to give you a high degree of certainty that someone is in the structure or involved space who needs immediate assistance; AND
• You believe that you may make an entry, reach the victim and remove him/her to a safe area with the available PPE and before the fire develops to a stage that will prevent your escape. (Keep in mind that incoming units will attempt to rescue you, should you become incapable of self rescue, probably eliminating any chance of rescue the victim may have had); AND
• You have some method of notifying incoming units of your intentions and whereabouts.
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thanks Joe...I got lost...I searched OSHA Regulation 1910.34 and it states if you have 2 go in you have to have 2 ready in case of emergency to respond and that only 1 of those people can be assigned another role (ie safety, or IC)..so as I saw it that means that if you have a total crew with you of 4 that unless there is life threat then you do a defensive attack until you get more help...going to bring it up at class tonight and see what the State Instructor says....thanks again...like the input...........Paul
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I understand the manning issues with rural depts. That being said most of my experience has been on the east coast, and from urban to rural, most depts send much more apparatus on building/house fires than they do on "alarm soundings".
What I was trying to relay to you was, IF your dept. had SOP's on building/house fires (assigned positions for 1st due, 2nd due...ect) then you should think about filling the box (assignment....whatever you call it) and get the 1st alarm dispatched before you jump the gun with a second (I have seen things go horribly wrong with 2 alarms worth of apparatus arriving at the same time and no staging area/staging officer set up)
And if I arrive on the scene of a fire believe people to be trapped, and enter the structure without the 2 in 2 out in place, and a lawyer tries to hem me up.....I would kindly invite them to READ the OSHA regulation........know the law, know your job.....DO NOT run scared from things (or you might want to look into another profession)
When a house is on fire WE are these peoples last hope.......hamstringing yourself/your dept. by worrying about OSHA regs. when you pull up on the big one is setting you up for failure.
There were MANY hostile arguments about 2 in 2 out, and that is why the rescue stipulation was put in there......so people can act without pause
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