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Differences in Civilian and RIT Rescue
So I was reading a FF magazine, and in it was an article about different sets of tactics for civillian and FF rescue. And in this article it mentioned that there are some dept's that train the same way either for rescuing a civillian or rescuing a firefighter. It then goes on to give some differences between each type of rescue and why they should not be treated the same as far as tactics go. Different things to keep in mind while performing a search for a homeowner or a firefighter.
I have 2 questions/polls or whatever you wanna call it regarding this topic:
#1- Be honest, are there any dept's out there that DO train the same way for rescuing a civillian or rescuing a firefighter? Personally, I know of none around here.
#2- What would be some differing tactics between the two? For example: searching for a civilian usually is focused in the most common areas (near windows,doors or in the actual fire location). Searching for a firefighter is different as he/she could be anywhere within the structure. Another example would be dragging a civilian out who is wearing likely minimal clothing as opposed to a firefighter who is fully dressed in PPE and other tools. A little more difficult.
I hope this generates many comments, not only for myself, but for others who might be curious.
Thanks. stay safe and have fun.
I have 2 questions/polls or whatever you wanna call it regarding this topic:
#1- Be honest, are there any dept's out there that DO train the same way for rescuing a civillian or rescuing a firefighter? Personally, I know of none around here.
#2- What would be some differing tactics between the two? For example: searching for a civilian usually is focused in the most common areas (near windows,doors or in the actual fire location). Searching for a firefighter is different as he/she could be anywhere within the structure. Another example would be dragging a civilian out who is wearing likely minimal clothing as opposed to a firefighter who is fully dressed in PPE and other tools. A little more difficult.
I hope this generates many comments, not only for myself, but for others who might be curious.
Thanks. stay safe and have fun.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by John Crabbe on
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What would be some differing tactics between the two?
The biggest difference comes from a triage standpoint. An entrapped civilian has many factors against them, smoke, fire, limited protection, etc where it may be neccessary to not do a search given conditions faced etc. Whereas a FF who goes down DOES have more protection, is protected for a limited time from smoke and fire, they should have communication, a PASS, a job assignment (IE first floor fire attack) etc to enable finding them easier. Downside is if conditions are bad for a FF to call a MAYDAY, the other FF's still go in.
I would say another difference is a civilian can be anywhere, under a bed, closet, bathtub, etc, whereas a FF should have training on MAYDAY procedures, should help themselves by giving out their location. As for different drags and so forth, I don't think we train any differently. I can still use my webbing to drag a civilian as I would for a FF. However, a FF does tend to promote different challenges because of the air pack, they may be heavier and just some different issues than a civilian. I don't really care so much as limited protection of a civilian when it comes to a drag, because the goal is still to get them out where they can be given a chance to live.
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Permalink Reply by Derek R. on
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thanks, this is exactly the types of things I'm looking for.
What about an unconcious FF who has fallen through a weakened floor. It has been known in the past that the PASS device failed under certain conditions. But then again, If it's known that he fell through the floor, I guess you would have a pretty good idea where he was, if it were a SFD.
But yes, weight and awkwardness would be a factor in removing a downed FF as opposed to a homeowner.
Thanks again.
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Permalink Reply by Ben Waller on
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Some similarities - use a Thermal Imaging Camera whenever possible when searching - they can help you find any victim, firefighter or not. Maintain a positive connection to the outside - hoseline or search rope. The TIC will get you in, but it usually won't get you out.
Differences - Civilians may be in primary egress routes, but they may also be in closets, under beds, in bathtubs, or unconscious in bed or on a couch. Firefighters may indeed be anywhere, including being buried in collapses, tangled in wires and acoustic ceiling framework, fallen through holes into a lower level, or in the attic/cockloft.
Rescue techniques - civilians are much easier to rescue unless they are extremely large or there is some unusual problem. That "easier" is relative - unless the victim is a small child that can be carried by one firefighter, it really isn't "easy". However, firefighters are wearing turnouts, SCBA, they're heavier and bulkier than civilians of the same body shape and mass, and they tend to get caught on corners, debris, and obstructions more easily, as you said. It is particularly difficult to move a firefighter through a window, attic scuttle, or narrow door compared to a civilian of the same size and body mass.
If a firefighter is able to give a MAYDAY and is not disoriented, it may be easier to find the firefighter, particularly if he/she remains calm, conserves air, sounds the PASS, and communicates via a working radio. An unconscious or disabled firefighter might not be able to do any of the above, and civilian victims won't be able to communicate for long unless they're hanging out of a window or in some visible/audible location.
As far as getting the victims out, all firefighters should have potential civilian rescues in mind.
"Fire Attack" for an engine company is really "Search to the Fire" - conduct a primary search along primary ingress/egress routes as you string hoselines through them. If you don't find a victim, extinguish the fire when you reach it. If you find a victim, make the rescue unless you have another company right there that can do it while you fight the fire, or unless Command directs otherwise.
If you are a truck or rescue company performing the search for a civilian, you can search more quickly, as you won't generally be dragging a charged line.
Firefighter rescues generally require one or more RIT teams, and some firefighters still die despite RIT intervention.
It may be possible for a firefighter's company to rescue him/her, but those are generally more along the lines of assistance, not a true, full-on rescue effort. If the full-on rescue is needed, you'll need RIT help.
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Another issue is the ability to shelter the victim in place. If a firefigher can be moved to a place of refuge and you can get an additional air supply there, a delay in the rescue might not be as critical as it is for an unprotected civilian.
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What about an unconcious FF who has fallen through a weakened floor. It has been known in the past that the PASS device failed under certain conditions. But then again, If it's known that he fell through the floor
That is why we also work in teams and maintain accountability. A PAR would be asked for any event such as a collapse, backdraft, flashover, etc, every so many minutes and whenever the IC wants. It is possible for 2 FF's to go down and may not be able to call a MAYDAY, but if comms were kept up it may be easier to realize there is an issue and can initiate rescue. Say a search team of 2 go down and neither gets off a MAYDAY call, if no other companies were aware of the event (collapse floor, etc) just the fact that the team doesn't answer would be enough to activate RIT. The IC should know where they went and can send a crew towards that location. This is why working on communications is paramount and is an issue on EVERY fireground and is addressed in every PIA
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Permalink Reply by ashfire on
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I have know of fires where no one knew a firefighter was missing and it took a while to find them after much confussion.
We had a fire where a child was rescued by a firefighter and everyone thought the ff went in the ambulance because they were helping with CPR. It turnout the firefigher had reentered the fire building and became trapped. At that time we had the old PASS devices that had to be manually turned on to work and his was not on.
Things have changed since then and have had a few firefighter rescues after they have become trapped.
I remember the different ideas on removing a firefighter. One was to use the waist straps on the SCBA and buckle them on to your SCBA and drag them that way.
I had a volunteer officer in a drill make me drag what was suppose to be three fire victims from a room by myself, because help was a long ways off, on my hands and knees until I couldn't pull the last one out and I ended up on the floor with them exhausted. I sure would have needed RIT help.
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Permalink Reply by Paul Montpetit on
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I see the training is "about" the same...That being said remember that the situation will be much different....a "civilian" (hate that term) search probably will be before Murphy arrives (before the shit hits the fan)...A Firefighter RIT search will be in the worst case and worse conditions....The fire has been brewing for awhile and gone to hell in a hand basket...In this case I am a proponent for the fittest and most experienced Firefighters be on the RIT/FAST teams.....Paul
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Permalink Reply by timothy fento on
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at our dept. we do train the same way for both and the only drifference in dragging out a homeowner vs. firefighter the firefighter has an airpack to grab on to
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thank you John. I've been wanting info. like this for a while now. To my knowledge, our dep't has never need to utilise a RIT. Therefore, extensive training has not been given, and the correct questions have not been asked. I'm hoping that whatever information I recieve here I can relay to our dept. This topic was brought up before and nobody had any real answers.
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Thank you Ben for your insight and knowledge.I'm glad I started this discussion, I'm gaining valuable information here.
We do have a TIC. And are instructed to use it whenever we can. But like you said, It can get you where you want to go, but just don't rely on it getting you out.
And the point you made about sheltering was discussed between a few of us, and we did come to the conclusion that if circumstances allowed, a FF could be delayed rescue in order for another emergency to be taken care of, or until a means of safe escape could be provided. (possibility of floor or cieling collapse after RIT has reached victem).
You've made a lot of good points that I can use to take back to our dept. Thanks.
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Thanks ashfire. Different examples of "what-ifs" and " I remember a time when...", is something else I was hoping for, just for spark of a further discussion.
Hope you don't mind if I ask a couple questions about your story. We are trained that at every entrance of a structure will be an officer or someone keeping track of who goes in. This is combined with our accountability system. Did nobody see him re-enter? I understand that there can be confusion at times,..it happens. Just a question.
And yes, using the pack to drag them out is a useful tool.
I think that was a good training day for you to pull three guys out by yourself. Use of RIT is a good way to go.
thanks for your reply.
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heheh, yah, I'm bnot a fan of the word "civilian" either. That's why I referred to them as "homeowners" a couple times.
And you're right about when the need for a FF rescue arises, the fire is usually at the high point of the growing stage and on its way to decay. Pretty crappy conditions to be searching in.
Thanks for your input.
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