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Interior/ Exterior Firefighters
Just a question do you think there should be exterior and interior firefighters? In my opinion i do.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by WestPhilly on
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John,
Actually I'm well aware of what the question is. I'm also aware that volunteer departments are ultimately at the mercy of those in the community who choose to do something - whether it be a lot or a little - and those who choose to do nothing. Ideally there would be no such thing as "exterior only" firefighters, but an answer to James' question has to be grounded in reality. And the reality is that in some departments in some communities, not enough citizens are willing or able to do all that the job requires. In some cases, not enough citizens are willing or able to offer their servives to the fire department in any form whatsoever. What mechanism is available to these departments to create a pool of committed citizens willing to give their all? There isn't, and so they make do with what they have. That sometimes takes the form of exterior only firefighters.
The analogies you made to police and EMS don't hold up. Police departments aren't comprised of volunteers, and the mechanism available to a police deptartment whose members aren't willing to do all the job requires is firing them. It's the same for paid fire departments. If you don't do the whole job, you're gone. That system can work because for every guy who gets let go there are hundreds - if not thousands - of others willing to step in. Many volunteer departments don't have that luxury. As for EMS, there's little to fear (in terms of your hide) compared to firefighting. The disinsentive for going into a burning structure is getting killed, and while EMS has its hazards, they're not on the order of interior firefighting.
You can only get out of people what they're willing to give. If a nearly unlimited supply of firefighters is available to do the whole job, there's no question about exterior only firefighters. Since that's not the case, you have to make the best of a less-than-perfect system.
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Permalink Reply by Jack/dt on
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WP I have to agree with you, your argument and logic is unassailable.
In a perfect world (one with an abundance of willing and capable volunteers) there would be no such thing as 'exterior' firefighters. As you point out, with limited resources a VFD has to take what it can get.
However, I am not quite sure how the poster actually intended the question. If it meant that they have a hard time finding anyone, much less willing to go interior and so they have 'exterior firefighters' to pick up the necessary slack, then they have to do what they have to do. It's not perfect, or even great, just necessary.
If though, the poster simply meant should a person be able to decide to be exterior only, where manpower is NOT an issue, then I think many in here, myself included feel that no, they should not be able to choose. If a department has no shortage of able and capable firefighters (and who can not use more of the same?) why take someone on who only wants to do the 'safe' stuff, especially when there is no need for limited duty firefighters?
One other overarching concern that may be at work here is that there are those that don't want to go interior simply because they don't want to risk their life but relish the idea of self-identifying as a firefighter. In other words, they are be tee shirt firefighters. If that is the case then, in a department not desperate for manpower people such as these are neither needed nor desired. At least in my humble opinion.
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Jeff: Thank you. I'll take a "Wow" any day.
Jack: I was operating on the assumption (I know that's sometimes dangerous, but I'm daring) that James was taking the reality of manpower issues into consideration and asking the question with that in mind. My answer to the question on its own is, of course, no. All things being equal, a firefighter should be a firefighter in every aspect of the job. "In for a penny, in for a pound". ("Unassailable"? Really? Coming from you, that's high praise indeed.)
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WP consider it my
christmasholiday gift to you.
Besides which, just because I've disagreed with you (and you with me) in no way diminishes unassailable logic, regardless from whom it comes. That it was yours wasdamn luckya freak accident of naturenothing less than I would have expected.
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Permalink Reply by Station10Capt106 on
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In a perfect world there would be no need to distinguish between interior or exterior firefighters. I agree that every member should be able to do all aspects of the job. But while I agree that they should, I also know the limitations that are placed on a volunteer department.
being imperfect as it may, certain concessions need to be made based upon available resources (people, equipment, apparatus). With limited manpower most volunteer departments can not dismiss those members that are not able to do certain fireground functions. These members can be used to do tanker shuttles, pump op's, rehab, and a host of other jobs thereby freeing up a more able bodied firefighter who could do other tasks.
Now if your department has to face this less than perfect reality, the Chief, Officers and IC need to make sure they know and understand the limitations of their members. They then must make sure that adequate mutual aid is called for when needed and use the available resources to their full potential.
Safety should be even more paramount in situations like this as everyone needs to be aware that when things hit the fan that the available personal that can assist is limited in scope.
It would be nice if all department had enough people willing and able to volunteer that they could pick and choose those that are able to do all functions. Until that time comes the department and community will need to make due with what is available.
John
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Permalink Reply by Todd on
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I don't have a problem with exterior members, provided they were at one time interior members and can provide a valuable function on the fire scene that allows me to free up someone to do the interior work.
A couple of situation in my area are perfect examples of this.
At a neighboring dept they have a guy with 35 years in the service, is retired as an over the road truck driver and is quite possibly the best pump operator I've ever seen. Back in the day he was one heck of a firefighter as well. At his age he simply can't put on a pack and go inside....but he can run the pump, haul water, handle the manpower pool, handle accountability, etc. He's going to safely get apparatus and personnel to and from the fire scene. There's no place in the fire service for this person?
At another department there is a member with 20+ years in the service, had served many years as an active company officer, driver/operator, and interior firefighter. Tactically one of the best officers I've ever served with. He got up in age (because he joined the fire service later in life) and can't pack up and go in any more. He functions as their Safety and Training Officer these days, and trust me when I say you feel a lot safer when you know he's watching your back. There's no place in the fire service for this person?
At a former department we had a paramedic join originally for EMS only. Eventually he did obtain his OSHA firefighter certification, but realized he wasn't cut out to be an interior firefighter for various reasons. However, he did become certified to operate all our apparatus and did a great job at that. With his EMS background he was also a natural at coordinating rehab, manpower, and accountability...often handling all three duties simultaneously better than I've seen it handled with three different people. There's no place in the fire service for this person?
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Permalink Reply by Mike Gemberling on
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Yup well put.
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I'll go out on a limb as a new guy around here.
I'm on the fence....Hows that for sticking your neck out?
As a member of a POC/VOL department I can see directly having people on who do not do interior. Simply we don't have the staffing. We are required to complete FF1/FF2. But like many have said on this thread just because you won't go inside doesn't mean you stand aside. We need all the resources we can get. Sure we want as many interior capable people as we can get. But it's just not a reality. Someone here brought up the EMS and correct me if I'm wrong but that is sub-divided up based on skill level is it not. Why not the fire service?
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Permalink Reply by Shawn M. Steinschreiber on
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3 years ago I had a sever case of pericarditis that turned into tamponade. They infection came from a patient, I was forced to "retire" by the doc... they said I could never wear an SCBA again... I stayed on the volunteer Dept. I could still drive when they needed and run the pumps and stuff like that.
Like I said that was three years ago, in May of this year the Doctors gave me the okay and said I was clear to go back to full duty. The time I was off the truck was still valuable to the Dept. I still went to trainings, and kept up my certs.
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Permalink Reply by John Crabbe on
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WP.
I am full aware of where you are coming from and I still stick by my opinion. I have never heard the term "exterior" only FF until a few years ago when I started perusing forums. As I stated here in WI, it is a requirement for anyone looking to become a FF (even volly) they have to have entry level certification. I know of depts here with members who "prefer" to be in an outside role, but they are NOT strictly "exterior". If shit really hits the fan, they are qualified and are able to go in. (maybe the state requiring such certs for all FF's should be taken up by the IAVFF). I understand there are some areas that hurt for vollies and work with the hands they are dealt, but there should also be a job description along with the application to join. Someone can't do the job, oh well, maybe the community needs to start looking at automatic aid, mutual aid, or low by golly, get annexed by a career dept. I understand there are different circumstances for everyone out there and I understand I won't change opinions, but this is my opinion.
As for the analogies, yes I understand you don't have volunteer police, but somehow many communities with volly depts are still protected by police who meet minimum standards. If they happen to live in the sticks with the closest PD 20 minutes out, that is the chance they take, but at least the cop is still meeting minimum standards for the job. People expect that officer to be able to perform the job duties, why should it be different for the FD? As for EMS, sure there may be less chance of getting killed as opposed to the fireground, but sorry if I don't feel a nice warm fuzzy with ample "exterior" people outside, but only a couple who may be able to perfom a rescue of a FF, or hell any rescue for that matter. Despite the best safety initiatives in the fire service, it is still an inherently dangerous job, there are times that require people to go in and again in my OPINION, every FF should be able to go in. If people can not, will not, too afraid, or won't commit to meeting the minimum standards, then IMO, they should not be FF's.
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John,
You don't have to tell me you still stick to your opinion - you're already on record as saying your opinion has not and will not change on this matter. If that's your attitude going into a discussion, I might as well talk to a post. But for now, I will say that if the issue of Exterior Only could be solved as simply as "automatic aid", "mutual aid", or being "annexed by a career dept", we wouldn't be having this discussion. I have a feeling that most people who know more than us about the day-to-day inner workings of the volunteer fire service would say it's not that simple.
You're fortunate to be in an area where manpower is sufficient to meet the needs of a traditional fire department. Not everyone has it so good.
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WP,
You're right, not everyone does have it as good, but not everyone pays the taxes I do either for such services. It is quite the issue though when you read threads stating "we are no different", "we all do the same job", "we are all professional" and so forth, yet when it comes to living up to the same standards, then it becomes "it isn't that simple" or "we make it work". We have NIOSH reports to learn from, but we see the same issues every year. We have safety standards that may or may not be enforced, we see training standards that aren't always met....so why the double standards then?
I really understand the issue that some people will prefer to be outside and some people may be useful as an engineer or safety and so forth, but there are still some basic skills that every person wanting to be a firefighter should do. Fears such as heights and claustophobia can be addressed and can be trained on so the person can address the fears. There should be no reason for someone coming on and saying I can only do this and that. Meet the minimum qualifications and if that means you have to be ready to go in, so be it, if for the most part you never go in, then that's fine, but at least have the training and be ready. A person with a bad back who can't wear an SCBA, how useful really are they on a fireground? If you can't wear an SCBA, how can you pull hose? Throw ladders? clean up afterwards? Maybe be accountability. Just my opinion everyone should meet the minimum qualifications.
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